# Do you consider the following assumption racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 9, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252 "2012-09-09T23:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/1 "2012-09-09T23:48:46Z")
I made the claim that I thought most black male teens in my city ride stolen bikes. This is based primarily on observation of people riding bikes and also on working in a high school where a lot of black kids rode stolen bikes. My wife got angry and suggested this was a “racist” thing to say. My definition of racism is treating someone differently based on race, or believing inherently that another race is inferior. I am making an assumption or stereotype about a racial demographic (black male teens) but I guess my question is do YOU personally think a generality or stereotype based on race makes it inherently racist? Now, to make it more confusing, if a study came out and affirmed my assumption would that matter? If I was wrong would that make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/2 "2012-09-09T23:52:34Z")
How exactly do you tell if a bicycle is stolen or not? Doesn’t a stolen bicycle look pretty much the same as a non-stolen bicycle? If the main reason you think a bicycle is stolen is because a black kid is riding it, then yes, your assumption is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/3 "2012-09-09T23:55:52Z")
Yes it is a racist assumption. Even if it was later shown to be true through evidence, you have not based your assumption on evidence, it is purely based on your biased extrapolation from very few data points (of questionable quality to begin with). ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/4 "2012-09-10T00:00:13Z")
You can have racist thoughts, it doesn’t have to be actions. Actions are worse, but it’s still racist. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/5 "2012-09-10T00:00:27Z")
Most bicycle thieves being young black males DOES NOT mean that most young black males own stolen bicycles. That inference is not logical. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/6 "2012-09-10T00:02:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How exactly do you tell if a bicycle is stolen or not? Doesn’t a stolen bicycle look pretty much the same as a non-stolen bicycle? > > If the main reason you think a bicycle is stolen is because a black kid is riding it, then yes, your assumption is racist. I’ll clarify. People buy bikes that fit their build and their recreational use. So when you see a teen on a tiny bike or a bike that is way too large, especially when it is a price point they couldn’t reasonably afford, I have my suspicions. Your second point, no. If a kid is on a bike, I’m not going to think it is a stolen bike just because he is black. But as I said, most kids seem to be riding bikes that don’t fit their profile. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/7 "2012-09-10T00:04:39Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > I’ll clarify. People buy bikes that fit their build and their recreational use. So when you see a teen on a tiny bike or a bike that is way too large, especially when it is a price point they couldn’t reasonably afford, I have my suspicions. > > Your second point, no. If a kid is on a bike, I’m not going to think it is a stolen bike just because he is black. But as I said, most kids seem to be riding bikes that don’t fit their profile. Bikes bought to grow into would explain bikes too big, and bikes that have been outgrown explains bikes too small. Not everyone can afford to keep up with children’s growth spurts. Cost could also be a factor, if you have very little money you have to take what you can afford… If the charity shop has one bike and you need a bike, that’s the bike you get. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/8 "2012-09-10T00:06:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Most bicycle thieves being young black males DOES NOT mean that most young black males own stolen bicycles. > > That inference is not logical. That’s not the inference I made (but actually, that inference is not necessarily illogical IMO). My assumption is made it based on kids I work with and based on observation. ---
**Author:** ![NeutronJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/neutronjack/32/4134_2.png) [@NeutronJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeutronJack)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/9 "2012-09-10T00:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Most bicycle thieves being young black males DOES NOT mean that most young black males own stolen bicycles. [/QUOTE] > [@ecoaster](#): > > That’s not the inference I made (but actually, that inference is not necessarily illogical IMO). You don’t think that’s illogical? Great, lets apply it: [ul] [li][Most U.S. State Governors are white males](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_governors#State_governors).[/li][li]Therefore, most white males are U.S. State Governors.[/li] [/ul]I believe the premise, but I don’t believe that there are, in fact, millions of U.S. State Governors. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/10 "2012-09-10T00:36:38Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Bikes bought to grow into would explain bikes too big, and bikes that have been outgrown explains bikes too small. Not everyone can afford to keep up with children’s growth spurts. > > Cost could also be a factor, if you have very little money you have to take what you can afford… If the charity shop has one bike and you need a bike, that’s the bike you get. To add a third possibility, young kids might be riding their older brother’s bike. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/11 "2012-09-10T00:38:23Z")
> [@NeutronJack](#): > > You don’t think that’s illogical? Great, lets apply it: > > [ul] > [li][Most U.S. State Governors are white males](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_governors#State_governors).[/li][li]Therefore, most white males are U.S. State Governors.[/li] > [/ul]I believe the premise, but I don’t believe that there are, in fact, millions of U.S. State Governors. Point understood. My point is that within a specific demographic in my area, as a cohort, I think it could be true that 51% or more of black male teens ride stolen bikes. I actually didn’t state that most black teen males steal bikes, they most certainly don’t. But kids give/lend/loan share bikes with each other that are stolen, hence my assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Critical\_Mass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@Critical\_Mass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical_Mass)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/12 "2012-09-10T00:51:45Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > My definition of racism is treating someone differently based on race, … You’re assuming a black teen male riding a bicycle is probably in possession of stolen property. You’re treating them differently on the basis of gender, age and/or colour. Take your pick. Call it prejudiced or racist. That’s what you’re doing and it meets your standards as defined by you. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/13 "2012-09-10T01:00:57Z")
> [@Critical\_Mass](#): > > You’re assuming a black teen male riding a bicycle is probably in possession of stolen property. > > You’re treating them differently on the basis of gender, age and/or colour. Take your pick. Call it prejudiced or racist. That’s what you’re doing and it meets your standards as defined by you. Ok, I thought I wasn’t going to respond to every post, and here I go. I’m not treating the black kid on the bike any differently than the white kid, all things being equal. I AM making an assumption, but this is also, as I’ve said, if the bike doesn’t match the kid. I made a statistical guess that most kids in this demographic ride hot bikes. But in each individual circumstance I am not treating a kid any differently and if the bike seems to match the rider I don’t think twice. Same goes for a white boy on a bike. ---
**Author:** ![Critical\_Mass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@Critical\_Mass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical_Mass)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/14 "2012-09-10T01:06:01Z")
If your thesis is that a teen male riding a bike that’s too big or too small for him is likely in possession of stolen property, then that’s not racist. It sounds funny as something about which to speculate, and maybe it’s prejudiced. But it isn’t racist. It’s also not what you said in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/15 "2012-09-10T01:13:54Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > …they couldn’t reasonably afford… How the holy fuck do \*\*you \*\*know what they can afford? Do you have access to their bank info. Do you have tax records for every family member? > [@](#): > > I have my suspicions. So do I. > [@](#): > > …But as I said, most kids seem to be riding bikes that don’t fit their profile. 😕😕 Also, haven’t smaller than usual bikes been kind of popular for a while now? I don’t actually follow trends in bikes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/16 "2012-09-10T01:31:35Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > That’s not the inference I made (but actually, that inference is not necessarily illogical IMO). My assumption is made it based on kids I work with and based on observation. You say this in your OP: > [@ecoaster](#): > > I made the claim that I thought most black male teens in my city ride stolen bikes. That sure sounds like, “Most young black males steal bikes!” You can quibble over the difference between being in possession of stolen property or actively stealing all you want. But your stated beliefs reveal illogical thinking. I see black kids riding undersized bikes everywhere I go, no matter what part of the country or what kind of neighborhood I’m in. I seriously doubt all of these bikes are stolen. I’m betting that most bikes that get stolen are “regular sized”, not the weird-sized bikes that I see these kids riding. There would have to be a nearby country populated with nothing but bicycle-riding midgets to supply such a demand! The more likely explanation is that among this demographic, riding undersized bikes is considered cool. If you look at your students’ feet, chances are you will see them clad in pricey kicks. It may boggle your mind how they could afford such items. Do you think they are stolen too? And those ill-fitting jeans they wear! Those must surely be stolen too, right? ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/17 "2012-09-10T01:40:08Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > I made a statistical guess that most kids in this demographic ride hot bikes. No, you made a wild ass guess based on a few observations, statistics come from data, you don’t have any. Go find some. > [@](#): > > …if the bike seems to match the rider I don’t think twice. Way back in the 70’s, my mother, brother & I lived in a homeless shelter run by a church. Someone donated a bunch of old bikes to them. I was allowed to use one around the neighborhood. I rode a pink girl’s bike that was a bit too small for me. Some kids would call me a faggot, but I had a bike to ride so I didn’t care too much. So how do you determine a bike matches a rider? What are your criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/18 "2012-09-10T01:42:56Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > Also, haven’t smaller than usual bikes been kind of popular for a while now? I don’t actually follow trends in bikes. Yes, the number of super-tiny single-gear bikes at my college is staggering. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/19 "2012-09-10T01:56:30Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > I made the claim that I thought most black male teens in my city ride stolen bikes. This is based primarily on observation of people riding bikes and also on working in a high school where a lot of black kids rode stolen bikes. > > My wife got angry and suggested this was a “racist” thing to say. My definition of racism is treating someone differently based on race, or believing inherently that another race is inferior. I am making an assumption or stereotype about a racial demographic (black male teens) but I guess my question is do YOU personally think a generality or stereotype based on race makes it inherently racist? > > Now, to make it more confusing, if a study came out and affirmed my assumption would that matter? If I was wrong would that make a difference? Not sure how the stolen bike ratio works out but in this area black kids riding little bikes are not riding childrens bikes, but single gear bikes that are unusually small but made for adult riders. Why these are popular I have no idea. If you said they were riding $ 1000 + touring bikes you might have a better point re the bikes being stolen or purchased from a person who stole them and sold them to friends for a little money. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/20 "2012-09-10T02:00:11Z")
You’re not treating them any different? In what universe? You’ve already prejudged them to be in possession of stolen property. Because in your universe any child riding a bike, too large, small or valuable, in your considered opinion (having glanced at them) _must_ have a stolen bike, although there are several other reasonable and likely explanations. (Too poor for a new bike, siblings bike, inherited bike, etc, etc.) Yeah, unless you’re making the same assumptions about white kids, that’s racism straight up, to me! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252.md?page=2)