# Do you consider the following assumption racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 9, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252 "2012-09-09T23:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/21 "2012-09-10T02:06:59Z")
I vaguely assumed they were all riding their little brothers’ bikes just to torture them. I had no idea it was a thing. I live in a cave. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/22 "2012-09-10T13:11:47Z")
People ride bikes that are too little for them because it’s easier to do stunts on them. Less weight to turn them, spin them, jump them, etc. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/23 "2012-09-10T13:38:58Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > My definition of racism is treating someone differently based on race, or believing inherently that another race is inferior. I am making an assumption or stereotype about a racial demographic (black male teens) but I guess my question is do YOU personally think a generality or stereotype based on race makes it inherently racist? To answer your question first, if the stereotype is negative such as thieves or lazy, and you are talking about a the majority of a specific racial group, then I cannot see how it could be anything but racist. The fact that one isn’t naming names makes one no less boorish. My brother-in-law, originally from Texas, never fails to point out “poor black” this and “poor blacks” that. You say in your OP that “a lot” of black students ride stolen bikes. Anywhere near 51%? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/24 "2012-09-10T13:43:27Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > To answer your question first, if the stereotype is negative such as thieves or lazy, and you are talking about a the majority of a specific racial group, then I cannot see how it could be anything but racist. The fact that one isn’t naming names makes one no less boorish. > > My brother-in-law, originally from Texas, never fails to point out “poor black” this and “poor blacks” that. > > You say in your OP that “a lot” of black students ride stolen bikes. Anywhere near 51%? And, while we have our share of racists in Texas, not every Texan is a racist. The OP’s statement? Sounds racist to me… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/25 "2012-09-10T13:44:39Z")
It’s not racist, as racism is a prejudice. What the OP has done is judge based on observable evidence. Incorrectly and illogically, as far as I can tell, but not prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/26 "2012-09-10T13:57:08Z")
It takes some money to get a bike for a kid that “fits” him or her, and then they keep growing. When I was a kid I rode a bike that was not the right fit for me. I am white and did not grow up poor but it’s not like my parents were going to buy me a new bike every few months when I grew a few more inches. The kids you see riding bikes that don’t “fit” are working with what they have. Being suspected of theft because they are stuck riding their older sister’s bike - priceless. Really, if they were going to steal a bike, would it be a beat up pink Huffy that’s two sizes too small? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/27 "2012-09-10T13:57:24Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Yes, the number of super-tiny single-gear bikes at my college is staggering. Are you guys referring to BMX and Freestyle bikes, or is there some other trend that I don’t know about? Most bikes at my college seem to be cheap MTBs, by the way. (Then again, around here in Alabama, I think hipsters still drive big cars, not fixie bikes.) ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/28 "2012-09-10T14:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not racist, as racism is a prejudice. I think you’re wrong about this. He sees them as being in possession of stolen property. Without knowing anything, other than that they are black, and riding a bike too small for them. Seems the very definition of prejudging to me. Since he’s not judging white kids this way, racial prejudice, pretty thinly veiled. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/29 "2012-09-10T15:03:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I think you’re wrong about this. > > He sees them as being in possession of stolen property. Without knowing anything, other than that they are black, and riding a bike too small for them. > > Seems the very definition of prejudging to me. Since he’s not judging white kids this way, racial prejudice, pretty thinly veiled. He claims to have seen evidence that many black kids steal bikes. I personally doubt that many more do than white kids, or kids of any colour, but if he’s basing his opinion on that evidence I wouldn’t say it’s racist. Believing that evidence without questioning it more thoroughly may be evidence of unconscious racism, though. It may seem like I’m nitpicking here, but I think that, if you want to actually challenge racism, it’s important to figure out exactly where it is. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/30 "2012-09-10T15:12:44Z")
I want to point out that I don’t consciously think to myself when I see a black kid on a bike that it is stolen/he is a thief. I am thinking about other things. My comment to my wife was that I believed many black males rode stolen bikes, based on working with teens and observation of kids on bikes that are not theirs (A 16 year-old on a pink mountain bike, or nice mountain bike with $800 shocks). Now, I could be totally wrong that it is most of these teens. It could only be 5% or .2%. Also, there are more black kids than white in my area on bikes. My assumption is not based on skin color alone, it is based on gender, observation and experience working with kids who acknowledged they picked the bike up in “someone else’s yard”… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/31 "2012-09-10T15:25:53Z")
How about some likelier explanations, many of which have already been offered in this thread? 1. Tiny bikes are in fashion. 2. Black kids are often from poor families and thus: - Might be riding bikes they have outgrown and can’t afford to replace. - Might be riding hand-me-downs that are too large. - Might be riding bikes that someone has given away. For a long time, my brother was riding a bike that was much too expensive for him to buy, and it was because his friend gave it to him. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/32 "2012-09-10T15:27:23Z")
You’re still prejudging them, with no evidence, just a casual glance, to be in possession of stolen property. That you live in a neighbourhood, with more black than white kids, doesn’t somehow erase how racist it is, anyway. On the one hand you’re saying it’s, “gender, observation and experience”, and then, that it could be as low as .2%, in fact. Doesn’t seem like your observation and experience, really proves very much, does it? And you have repeatedly refused to acknowledge the much more likely explanations that, they are too poor for a newer bike, are riding a siblings bike, inherited the bike as it is, etc, etc. There are lots of other reasonable explanations, for big kids on little bikes, etc, than the racist assumption you’re making. It says nothing about them, (anyone could clearly see you have nothing to base your assumptions on, other than your own prejudices, other possible explanations abound!), and tons about you. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/33 "2012-09-10T15:43:16Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > People ride bikes that are too little for them because it’s easier to do stunts on them. Less weight to turn them, spin them, jump them, etc. Yep. My son got a “stunt bike” for xmas when he was six or so. It had projections from the axles (pegs?) for doing tricks. I did not steal the bike. Then again, I am white. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/34 "2012-09-10T15:43:31Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And you have repeatedly refused to acknowledge the much more likely explanations that, they are too poor for a newer bike, are riding a siblings bike, inherited the bike as it is, etc, etc. There are lots of other reasonable explanations, for big kids on little bikes, etc, than the racist assumption you’re making. > > It says nothing about them, (anyone could clearly see you have nothing to base your assumptions on, other than your own prejudices, other possible explanations abound!), and tons about you. First of all, how do you know these are more likely explanations? How would you have any idea? I am talking about an aggregate, a stereotype. So, yes, in any individual circumstance there are other possible explanations. Theft in urban areas (both petty larceny and major theft) is common for youth to engage in. Stealing bikes is a crime of opportunity with very little risk. Poorer kids need to get around the city, so snatching a bike is an easy way to go. I understand people’s discomfort with my stereotype and I could be totally wrong. But dismissing it simply because it is a negative stereotype, doesn’t make much sense. Obviously there are racial and gender correlations to crimes (e.g. [higher percentage of drug using teens are white than black](http://www.dukehealth.org/health_library/news/white-and-hispanic-teens-more-likely-to-abuse-drugs-than-african-americans), more rapists are men,etc.). So, maybe I am making a WAG, or maybe not. What is inherently racist about making a statistical guess based partially on race, partially on gender, partially on experience? ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/35 "2012-09-10T15:50:09Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > I want to point out that I don’t consciously think to myself when I see a black kid on a bike that it is stolen/he is a thief. I am thinking about other things. My comment to my wife was that I believed many black males rode stolen bikes, based on working with teens and observation of kids on bikes that are not theirs (A 16 year-old on a pink mountain bike, or nice mountain bike with $800 shocks). It is racist to assume the bikes are stolen rather than handed down or bought used. You jumped to the conclusion that they were stolen because the kids were black. I doubt you think that when you see a white kid on a bike that doesn’t “fit”. > [@](#): > > Also, there are more black kids than white in my area on bikes. Probably because all the teenaged white kids are driving stolen cars. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > My assumption is not based on skin color alone, it is based on gender, observation and experience working with kids who acknowledged they picked the bike up in “someone else’s yard”… Keep telling yourself that. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/36 "2012-09-10T15:51:31Z")
> [@](#): > > What is inherently racist about making a statistical guess based partially on race, partially on gender, partially on experience? By your own admission, the actual incidence may be as low as .2%. That’s what’s wrong. > [@](#): > > First of all, how do you know these are more likely explanations? I don’t ‘know’. But I’m not the one making thinly veiled, racist assumptions based on no more evidence than; small bike, big kid, black skin. > [@](#): > > But dismissing it simply because it is a negative stereotype, No one has done this. You’re being challenged because your assumptions are without basis, not because they are negative stereotypes. You are unnecessarily attributing to crime, what can reasonably, and quite easily, be explained away, by numerous other factors. Based on nothing it would seem. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/37 "2012-09-10T16:46:23Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > I’ll clarify. People buy bikes that fit their build and their recreational use. So when you see a teen on a tiny bike or a bike that is way too large, especially when it is a price point they couldn’t reasonably afford, I have my suspicions. > > Your second point, no. If a kid is on a bike, I’m not going to think it is a stolen bike just because he is black. But as I said, most kids seem to be riding bikes that don’t fit their profile. I see a lot of black kids wearing pants that are way too large for them. Ergo, I conclude they must be stealing and wearing other people’s pants. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/38 "2012-09-10T16:47:14Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > but I guess my question is do YOU personally think a generality or stereotype based on race makes it inherently racist? A truth claim that differentiates one race from another is, by definition, racist. Having said that, the racism of a claim is is independent of that claim’s truth value. That is, a claim may be racist and true at the same time. I’m not making any claims about whether your statement is true or not, but clearly it is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/39 "2012-09-10T16:51:26Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > A truth claim that differentiates one race from another is, by definition, racist. Does that make something like “White people are more likely to have blue eyes than black people are” a racist statement? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/40 "2012-09-10T16:58:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Does that make something like “White people are more likely to have blue eyes than black people are” a racist statement? Ironically, by Machine Elf’s standard, saying that black people suffer a disproportionate amount from racism in America would itself be a racist statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252.md?page=3)