# Do you consider the following assumption racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 9, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252 "2012-09-09T23:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/41 "2012-09-10T17:01:15Z")
I worked in a company that over the years switched from primarily white to hispanic truck mechanics. Every single hispanic mechanic at one time or another was found to have tools in their box that did not belong to them. Am I racist to believe that hispanic mechanics seem to have a problem with stealing tools and supplies. I think not! All of our black mechanics proved out to be extremely honest. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/42 "2012-09-10T17:01:28Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Does that make something like “White people are more likely to have blue eyes than black people are” a racist statement? How could it not be, unless “racist” is restricted to only those claims that attribute or imply some sort of inequality? Is inequality of ability or morality (as opposed to simple differentiation) a necessary attribute in order for a claim to be racist? ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/43 "2012-09-10T17:19:45Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > A truth claim that differentiates one race from another is, by definition, racist. Having said that, the racism of a claim is is independent of that claim’s truth value. That is, a claim may be racist and true at the same time. I don’t follow this at all. Can you explain? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/44 "2012-09-10T17:39:19Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > I don’t follow this at all. Can you explain? A truth claim is a statement that asserts “X is true.” For the OP, “most black male teens in my city ride stolen bikes” is a truth claim. Truth value is whether the claim is true or false. Basically, “racist” and “true/false” are independent properties. a truth claim can be: -racist and true -racist and false -non-racist and true or -non-racist and false If you’re having a discussion/debate with someone, it’s not enough to counter their claim with a reflexive cry of “that’s racist!” You would need to demonstrate that their claim is false, whether it’s racist or not. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/45 "2012-09-10T17:42:21Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Is inequality of ability or morality (as opposed to simple differentiation) a necessary attribute in order for a claim to be racist? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/46 "2012-09-10T17:48:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Ironically, by Machine Elf’s standard, saying that black people suffer a disproportionate amount from racism in America would itself be a racist statement. Its worse than that. Sounds to me like the definition of “racist” he is using is such that noting that black people are…uhhh… black and white people are…uhhh… white could be a racist observation. I guess you could argue that is a valid definition of “racist” but IMO that ranks right up there with “handshake rape” in terms of being a useful distinction/definition. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/47 "2012-09-10T17:59:19Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > Also, there are more black kids than white in my area on bikes. Of course there are. White kids can’t ride when all their bikes have been stolen. ---
**Author:** ![ecoaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85e7bf/32.png) [@ecoaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecoaster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/48 "2012-09-10T18:18:48Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > A truth claim is a statement that asserts “X is true.” For the OP, “most black male teens in my city ride stolen bikes” is a truth claim. > > Truth value is whether the claim is true or false. > > Basically, “racist” and “true/false” are independent properties. a truth claim can be: > > -racist and true > > -racist and false > > -non-racist and true > > or > > -non-racist and false > > If you’re having a discussion/debate with someone, it’s not enough to counter their claim with a reflexive cry of “that’s racist!” You would need to demonstrate that their claim is false, whether it’s racist or not. Problem is, you have sufficiently defined what “racist” is. My supposition is definitely “racial”, meaning race is a primary component of my generalization. By I haven’t made any claims about inferiority, inherent “differentness” about being black, etc. Racial statements are different from racist statements. My racial stereotype may be wrong, but I’m still not convinced it is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/49 "2012-09-10T18:34:15Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > I worked in a company that over the years switched from primarily white to hispanic truck mechanics. Every single hispanic mechanic at one time or another was found to have tools in their box that did not belong to them. Am I racist to believe that hispanic mechanics seem to have a problem with stealing tools and supplies. I think not! All of our black mechanics proved out to be extremely honest. Maybe. You’re assuming that the reason for what you saw was that hispanic mechanics steal more tools. But maybe mechanics have just gotten less reliable over the years and mechanics nowadays are more likely to steal then they used to be. It’s just a coincidence that your company switched from white mechanics to hispanic mechanics during this same period. Maybe security measures have tightened up. The white mechanics might have been stealing just as many tools and weren’t getting caught. Maybe the reason the company switched to hispanic mechanics is because it found it can pay them less money. But now the company is finding that mechanics that get paid less are more likely to steal. Maybe the company hired all these mechanics from a hiring agency that’s actually a front for organized crime. If the company switched to a different agency, it would find all its new mechanics, regardless of race, would be honest. Maybe the white mechanics that used to work for the company were all friends and relatives of the owner and didn’t want to steal from somebody they knew. All of these are possible explanations that don’t link being hispanic with being a thief. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/50 "2012-09-10T19:39:33Z")
I would say that the statement made by the OP is racist, and in a pretty bad way. Even if assume for the sake of argument that there are a lot of stolen bikes and that black kids are disproportionately responsible for stealing them, it does not follow that most black teens are riding stolen bikes. That really isn’t any different than sayign that black kids are disproportionately likely to commit or be convicted of crimes, therefore most black kids are criminals, and I’m pretty sure everyone in this thread would agree that saying most black kids are criminals is pretty damn racist even though the premise of the argument isn’t something people are likely to dispute. Of course, part of the issue with that line of reasoning is that it isn’t logically sound, the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise. But it can also be racist even if you’re attributing a trait that is generally considered positive. For instance, I seem to remember seeing that Jewish kids perform well on standardized tests, but it would be racist to assume that a Jewish kid is smarter than average for the same reason. In my view, really, any time you’re using race as part of a reason for a judgment or action for which race isn’t a real meaningful causal factor, it’s racist. Remember, correlation does not equal causation, and we’re talking about applying anecdote and impressions of statistics to individuals. There may be a correlation between being black and being a bike thief, but being black is not a causal factor, thus it’s racist. A medical study that shows black men are more likely to have a certain heart disease and would benefit from an additional screening, seems like a reasonably meaningful causal factor in that case, so it’s not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/51 "2012-09-10T19:52:04Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Are you guys referring to BMX and Freestyle bikes, or is there some other trend that I don’t know about? Most bikes at my college seem to be cheap MTBs, by the way. (Then again, around here in Alabama, I think hipsters still drive big cars, not fixie bikes.) I think they’re supposed to be LIKE BMX bikes. But I went to Wal-Mart recently, and they’re pretty cheap, a lot cheaper than what you usually see marketed as BMX bikes. They were probably the only bikes there under 100 bucks (in the adult section at least). ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Red](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7feea3/32.png) [@Old\_Red](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Old_Red)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/52 "2012-09-10T21:04:15Z")
Consider these statements: ‘A random sample of 1 million Negroes compared to 1 million Caucasians demonstrated Caucasian IQ to exceed Negro IQ by an average of 10 points.’ (A) Is this statement racist: Yes or No ‘A random sample of 1 million Caucasians compared to 1 million East Asians demonstrated East Asian IQ to exceed Caucasian IQ by an average of 10 points.’ (B) Is this statement racist: Yes or No Did you use **identical logic** to arrive at answer (A) and answer (B) ? ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/53 "2012-09-10T21:25:05Z")
> [@Old\_Red](#): > > Consider these statements: > > ‘A random sample of 1 million Negroes compared to 1 million Caucasians demonstrated Caucasian IQ to exceed Negro IQ by an average of 10 points.’ > > (A) Is this statement racist: Yes or No > > ‘A random sample of 1 million Caucasians compared to 1 million East Asians demonstrated East Asian IQ to exceed Caucasian IQ by an average of 10 points.’ > > (B) Is this statement racist: Yes or No > > Did you use **identical logic** to arrive at answer (A) and answer (B) ? IMHO, Both A & B are racist because the only people who make these types of statements are almost always racist and lack decent data to back them up with. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/54 "2012-09-10T21:27:33Z")
Aside from the questionable use of “Negro” (which is a pretty big “aside”), no neither is racist (however – correlation =/= causation, cultural and socioeconomic factors likely play a big factor in each statistic, if it were a real one I mean). But you’re completely missing the OP – he didn’t do a study of young African American males in his area and conclude that stolen bicycles are 98% more likely in the local AA population – he merely made a bizarre observation about the size and approximate value of their bikes\* coupled with their race. - And unless you’re a real bike maven, I’m not even sure how you can tell. I may be able to tell a $200 bike from a $1k+ tour bike, but ask me to differentiate a $200 from a $500? No way, not without closely inspecting it to see what kind of gear shift it has, the brand, etc at least. > [@Foggy](#): > > IMHO, Both A & B are racist because the only people who make these types of statements are almost always racist and lack decent data to back them up with. I agree with you in context, but save “Negro”, the statements themselves aren’t necessarily racist if they were quotes from an actual study. In most contexts they’re racist, but they’re not inherently racist. Not in the way “damn coons took over the mall” is inherently racist. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/55 "2012-09-10T21:37:30Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > In most contexts they’re racist, but they’re not inherently racist. Not in the way “damn coons took over the mall” is inherently racist. Statements about [cats](http://bestcatbreed.com/maine-coon-cat-breeds.html/maine-coon-cats) exerting their dominance over our shopping centers notwithstanding. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/56 "2012-09-10T21:48:56Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Aside from the questionable use of “Negro” (which is a pretty big “aside”), no neither is racist (however – correlation =/= causation, cultural and socioeconomic factors likely play a big factor in each statistic, if it were a real one I mean). I agree with this assessment and disagree with **Foggy**. They’re documentable observations and can be reasonably disputed or supported by evaluating the data and methodology. There’s absolutely nothing racist about documenting that a particulary student had a particular score and what his race is, nor is there any racism in collecting many of those samples and applying standard statistical analysis on that data. You could do the same study cross referencing sex, hair color, eye color, height, or any number of other characteristics. What would be racist is using either of those to come to the conclusion that whites are smarter than blacks or asians are smarter than whites because, as pointed out, all this study has done is determined that there is a correlation in this data and in order to determine that it is meaningful there’s a whole bunch of other factors that need to be controlled for. For instance, say I did this study across elementary school students but instead of comparing to race I chose height. Then say that study found that taller kids tended to have significantly higher performances on a particular standardized test. I might argue that taller kids are smarter, but really the issue is that across all elementary school students you have different ages and grade levels, so of course, the older kids who have had more education will tend to do better and, being older, will tend to be taller. When you’re dealing with race, it gets a lot muddier than that a lot faster because of social, cultural, economic, regional, and all sorts of other factors that are far more difficult to control for and far easier to have an agenda about. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/57 "2012-09-11T19:02:45Z")
Opinion before reading the thread: if you say something disparaging about a group of people when you have no direct information indicating that is true, you are prejudging them, and therefore being racist. If you, say, had done some sort of survey, then perhaps not. How racist depends on how often you’ve observed black people stealing bikes, but I’m guessing it’s rather infrequent. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/58 "2012-09-11T19:05:56Z")
> [@Critical\_Mass](#): > > If your thesis is that a teen male riding a bike that’s too big or too small for him is likely in possession of stolen property, then that’s not racist. > > It sounds funny as something about which to speculate, and maybe it’s prejudiced. But it isn’t racist. > > It’s also not what you said in your OP. It’s definitely weird, since black people are in fact more likely to be in the poorer demographics, and the poorer demographics often don’t have the money to get a bike that fits them. I think all but one of my bikes came from a garage sale, for instance. But I agree that that is not inherently racist. It’s just ignorance about how poor some people are. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/59 "2012-09-12T00:22:23Z")
But he doesn’t jump to the same conclusion, about white kids on small bikes, only black kids. Sorry, I’m still seeing racism. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252/60 "2012-09-12T01:38:11Z")
> [@ecoaster](#): > > Problem is, you have sufficiently defined what “racist” is. My supposition is definitely “racial”, meaning race is a primary component of my generalization. By I haven’t made any claims about inferiority, inherent “differentness” about being black, etc. Racial statements are different from racist statements. My racial stereotype may be wrong, but I’m still not convinced it is racist. Saying black boys are likely to be stealing or riding stolen bikes is making a claim of inferiority, unless you think thievery is an okay thing to do. You are saying they are morally inferior. “Those darn black boys can’t stop taking other peoples’ bicycles, unlike those good old’ Asian kids, who respect private property.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-consider-the-following-assumption-racist/634252.md?page=4)