I think some basically decent guys could use sexist slurs every once in a great while and not be sexist. Even I might have once called someone a pussy. But if this is your go-to insult? Chances are there are red flags all over the place.
I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that “pussy” can be divorced from its reference to female genitalia. Would you call someone that in front of a teacher? Your mother? The Pope? We all damned well know it’s not about kitty cats.
I mean that you’re trying to claim that a word that you know is offensive isn’t ACTUALLY offensive - to the degree that nobody should be offended by you using it - because you’re part of a culture that ‘owns’ it.
Fuck has never lost its connotations related to being a crude word for sex. It never will, until they become literally lost to memory. It’s commonly used as a word for something bad or a mere intensifier, but it is still a crude word for sex.
Cunt has never lost its connotations related to being a crude word for the female genitalia. It never will, until they become literally lost to memory. It’s commonly used as a slur or…a slur, but it is still a crude word for the female genitalia.
It may be a “failure of imagination” for me not to pretend otherwise, but there is not the barest hint of hypocrisy.
Dude, I live in america. We’re well-acquainted with women who perpetuate systems that are misogynistic against women - explicitly misogynistic. Have you seen some of the churches we have around here?
Can be used? Hold on, my eyes are violently rolling again.
And yeah, the fact that it’s a misogynistic slur is what makes it sexist to use it. It is exactly the same as how racist slurs are racist to use. I mean, exactly the same. In form, function, and mechanism.
One could note that that’s not what the word actually means, and that it has a different set of cultural baggage that does speak to and reference the cultural stereotypes about men with different connotations about the same…so not equally sexist.
But yes, it is somewhat sexist. But nobody would care, because even pearl-clutching liberals are okay with being whatever-ist against the dominant group.
Twenty three years in the Navy. 'Nuff said?
No, a dick is an asshole.
A tool is useless and worthless. 
But that is not the only thing it refers to and certainly my experience of its usage to indicate cowardice has no connection to female gentalia. As was stated upthread it isn’t clear at all that that is where the word comes fromfor that particular usage.
This just seems to boil down to an incredulity on your part that a word can have multiple usages and meanings and carry very different connotations and that it varies from culture to culture. I never would have thought that fact could be in serious doubt.
What I’m in doubt about is who is deciding whether it is or is not dehumanizing to women. You can get any number of men in the US defending their sexist language. You can get any number of women defending those men, using those slurs to denigrate other women. It doesn’t mean they automatically aren’t sexist. So yeah, I’m skeptical.
No, I’m not. You are right and fine to be offended in your culture because it carries certain connotations. It is offensive to you in a way that is very different to how it is perceived in other cultures. No-one owns the word, but each group gets to define what it means and how it is used for them.
If anyone is, you are trying to exert ownership of the word by judging its usage by your own parochial standards. That doesn’t work.
It can never escape the fact of its origin, it can and does escape the connotations of it.
yes…CAN…be used. Not always, not everywhere, not by everyone. Your personal experience and interpretation of language does represent the entirity of human experience.
So a slur word doesn’t always mean the same thing and it has a different set of cultural baggage…? That sounds like a very familiar argument to me.
Well then I don’t know what to tell you. Even though I make it clear that I’m not talking about USA usage you pull it back to your experience in the USA.
I get that, I know that. What I don’t get is the unwillingness to accept that your situation may not apply everywhere.
Its usage in the UK is garnering criticism from within:
See this article from Irish editor and writer Stan Carey [bolding mine]:
“By the early 20th century cunt has acquired a layer of hatred in its meaning,” Kate Warwick writes in an exploration of the word’s offensive power, describing how phonetics and connotation contribute to that effect. Germaine Greer’s influential Female Eunuch (1970) deemed it “the worst name anyone can be called”, and many would still agree. Surveys by broadcasting standards authorities in different English-speaking countries consistently place it at or near the top of their offensiveness charts.
…
Its casual use can be hard to adjust to if your culture categorises it as a serious, misogynistic slur. In dialects where cunt is less taboo, it’s often used of men, typically as an insult but also with affection. That doesn’t rid it of its gender-markedness, though (any more than “guys” has become gender neutral) simply because some people use it that way. As Lynne Murphy writes, “The shift from feminine to masculine in [British English](British English - Wikipedia) is part of a more general tendency to use words for women (or our parts) as the ultimate way to put down a man. Which sums up the status of womanhood in our culture rather neatly.”
We can cut some slack to people who use a term out of ignorance of its misogyny. Now that ignorance has been fought, I hope you’re open to reevaluating your own use of the term.
Parochial??
Sorry sucker, I’m an atheist. My issue here isn’t religious indoctrination, or even cultural indoctrination. I have personally come to the conclusion that misogynistic slurs are, in fact, a bad thing to use, due to a personal desire to avoid being a sexist piece of shit.
(I also have come to the conclusion that I can’t type “misogynistic” correctly to save my life, but that’s neither here nor there.)
Only because you failed to understand my words and twisted them in your head to fit your preferred conclusion.
“Cunt” is misogynistic because it equates “iconic female part” with “incredibly contemptible person”. There’s not even any nuance to it; there’s nothing particular about vagnias that it is referencing; it’s just drawing its meaning as a slur from the premise that women are complete and total garbage.
“Dick” has different cultural baggage not because it’s a different culture, but because it’s a different word. “Dick” does have definitional nuance (though you seem to be unaware of it) - it accuses the subject of being selfish, uncaring, and rude. These things…are not as bad for a man to be. Depending on your definitions of masculinity, it’s good to be kind of a dick.
That’s how the cultural baggage is different. “Dick” is simply not as bad a slur as “cunt”. And while it is sexist, what is says about the sex in question as a whole just isn’t as denigrating.
I was once in a conversation with a large number of women in the UK and I said, “I understand that word doesn’t have the same misogynist connotations as it does in the US” and I received several comments along the lines of, “Oh, yes it does!” So I suspect the derogatory connotations are a little more strongly felt by those affected by its usage. I can grok that it’s more commonly used and that it doesn’t have the same visceral sting as it does in the US, but that does not, IMO, divorce it from the fact that it’s a gendered insult.
A less extreme example in the US would be bitch. Bitch is in fairly common usage, not nearly as taboo as cunt, but it’s still an insult that is derogatory to women. So ISTM you’re using a word like bitch, on the regular, to insult men, and insisting it’s not really insulting to women.
I saw that article a while ago, it was measured and sober. e.g.
But profanity is determined socially, which traditionally has meant locally, and in certain dialects cunt has little or no shock value. For some speakers of Australian English, Irish English and British (especially Scottish) English, it is an ordinary element of their speech. In Scotland it’s even becoming a pronoun. There are socioeconomic implications: “Even within England,” writes Ally Fogg, “it is used more commonly the further you get (both geographically and sociopolitically) from the ruling class and the bourgeoisie.”
Which was the bit you cut out of what you quoted and is the bit which reflects exactly what I’ve been saying. The piece goes on to also talk about it potentially reducing in power elsewhere and being reclaimed. I’d encourage anyone wondering where I’m coming from to read that article as makes some excellent points.
“Reclaimed”?
So am I and yet I am still able to usethe word in a way that has nothing to do with a church.
We’re getting nowhere. I’m just repeating at this point. I suggest you read the article just linked to. It makes my points better than I can, and some of yours better than you have.
The article’s words not mine
There are signs that cunt’s taboo is decreasing slightly in North America, or at least parts of it. Feminist efforts to reclaim it gained momentum through Eve Ensler’s Vagina Monologues, while Michael Adams has tracked its reappropriation on American TV – though he concludes that the examples don’t yet constitute a trend.
I’ve also been told the word “cunt” isn’t considered misogynist elsewhere, and I took that on good faith. However, @Spice_Weasel does have a point that the only people I ever hear saying that are men. It would be interesting to see if women there agree, or are just putting up with it like they did for decades here in the US.
The type of thing that would help is not some guy like @Novelty_Bobble asking his own wife and then telling other women they don’t understand how words work. It’s going to be actually finding some feminist organization that talks about it. It will be finding a survey that is divided by gender. It’s not going to be someone who already is okay with it asking people he knows who would obviously also be probably okay with it.
Until then, of course women who have faced men saying “cunt” isn’t offensive here in America are going to skeptical hearing men saying that “cunt” isn’t offensive in some other country. They’ve heard that before. I’m a bit disappointed in myself that I hadn’t considered it.
And now that I read that she has had people tell her it is indeed that offensive, I’m now also skeptical of the men saying its isn’t offensive.
And the linked article does not help, as it talks of it being reclaimed, which can only happen if it was offensive, and then the minority it offended then tried to use it in an unoffensive way to take the power out of it. (See, for example, “queer.”) Since it has not been fully reclaimed yet, that means it is currently still offensive. Heck, “queer” is still offensive in some situations.
At this point we are merely playing anecdote tennis, thing is I accept fully that you could encounter a group from which you could get several comments to that effect.
I have also had similar conversations where the pretty unanimous response would be just the opposite.
So I’ve read the article. The article reaffirms that it is indeed a misogynistic slur and never even implies otherwise at any point. The main thrust of the article is that the extreme burning offensiveness of this misogynistic slur varies by region, and how offensive it is varies largely by use - in places where it’s used commonly it’s less offensive.
Fuck went through the same process - here in the US at least it used to be MUCH more scandalous and you can still give older people the vapors with it to this day. But in the 90s people beat the living fuck out of it and so now it’s way less potent.
Fuck is still a swear word though, and cunt is still a misogynistic slur. Even if it doesn’t have as much bite, it’s still 100% sexist.
And yeah, I don’t think “bitch” should be used either. I’m rather zero tolerance about using women as punching bags.
That is not what I said. That is a disingenous interpretation of the points I’ve been making.
I’d say my primary use of the word is screaming it at video game bosses.