# Do you dress and groom for yourself or for others? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348 "2023-07-21T12:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/101 "2023-07-23T16:58:04Z")
I’m going to suggest that the audience here, being older than average, will have some skewed ideas vs society at large. As a trivial example, notions of attractiveness or fitting in matter less to retirees than they do to teens. At whatever SES, fewer 70yo own formal clothes that still fit than those same people did when age 40ish. I’ll also suggest that the epidemic of obesity has a large influence. The definition of what’s “comfortable enough” changes a lot if you’re 50 or 100 or 150 lbs heavier than your underlying body might prefer. As well, despite the progress against “body shaming” and all the rest, I suspect a greater percentage of the significantly obese vs not will come to a conclusion like “Oh, hell, they don’t make good-looking stuff in my size anyhow, so why bother?” Lastly COVID has really altered the cultural attitudes to looks and dress. As several folks have said upthread, after WFH for a couple years even getting dressed at all feels like excess unnecessary work. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/102 "2023-07-23T17:07:16Z")
This thread reminds me of a comedian who was joking about how he was in his 30s and did not dress sharply. “I think it’s time I stop wearing superhero clothes around the house. I was admonishing my twelve year old son… but then I noticed we were both wearing the same Superman pajamas. I said he had to go to his room, so he turned around and gave his cape a sarcastic flip. So I turned around and gave _my_ cape a sarcastic flip…” I don’t mind if people wear athletic wear and think yoga pants look really good on women. What is bad is not joggers as such, but mismatching these in a slovenly way that sometimes suggests “I’ve given up”. When I dress up a little I usually get a lot of positive comments; it has become rarer. When I wore a tie at work I sometimes got criticized by co-workers who dressed more slovenly than I did (but I did not judge them for this, actually say or suggest that, or care what they wore). Essentially they wanted to say they dressed in a laid back way because they were laid back people who cared not for fashion. Except they were not remotely laid back, and they certainly cared when people dressed even slightly differently or perhaps a little better than they did. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/103 "2023-07-23T17:07:58Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > As a trivial example, notions of attractiveness or fitting in matter less to retirees than they do to teens I’m not quite retired, but close, and, anecdata, i care more about attractive and fitting in now than i did as a teen. I am more aware of the benefits of both, i think. Also, as a teen, looking attractive within the range that was easy for me meant attracting unwanted and uncomfortable male attention. Now it mostly just garners me more respect. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/104 "2023-07-23T17:09:00Z")
Moderating: > [@alovem](#): > > What a load of crap. No matter how much of that cheap perfume that you seem to think is flowery language you spray on it, it still smells like elitism. No matter how carefully you word it, it still smells like a personal attack. Knock it off. You can make your points without getting personal. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/105 "2023-07-23T17:13:54Z")
I wear all black because I like it. Neither dressy nor sloppy. Though someone yelling, Aren’t those the same pants you wore yesterday? Is rude. I have many black pants! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/106 "2023-07-23T17:17:59Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > They may or may not exactly _care_ what people think - but they are sending a particular message Everything we do sends a message. It’s the not caring part that matters, for this thread. > [@doreen](#): > > Because they actually do care what people think You’re talking about people who dress specifically in some sort of oppositional defiant manner, but that doesn’t include me, or, I think, the people wearing shorts and t-shirts everywhere they go. They wear that _because it’s what they wear_, AFAICT. Them and most of their tribe. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > I’d say that is a fair description of selfishness You’re confusing self-centred with selfish. I’m the former, not the latter. It’s only if my clothing actually had an impact on others, and I continued anyway, that it would slide into selfishness. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Your ease and comfort being the only regulator of your public behavior and presentation. I have that luxury because none of my adopted aesthetics are in any way an imposition on anyone else, or in any way anyone else’s business. Not that I dress for ease and comfort, mind you. I dress for looks. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Although, I would suggest that there are very clear limits to your ability to act on this persuasion that only you matter. Only the same legal limits that exist for anyone. And so, they don’t matter to me, specifically. Other than that, there’s nothing to concern me in “transgressing”. If I transgress anything, it’s usually by being slightly _more_ formal or otherwise _more_ fashionably dressed than the people around me. I don’t know how it works where you are, but here, that doesn’t earn me more than occasionally a little friendly ribbing, or a compliment. Neither of which motivate me in my clothing choices afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/107 "2023-07-23T17:22:40Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > There’s a whole lot of projection going on from people who believe in deliberately sending messages by their clothing choices. Or a lot of denial by those who want others to think that they don’t. Seriously to me it is a simple acknowledgement of what it means to be a human social creature. We do not well exist in isolation; we exist in relation to, in context with, others including strangers in situational dependent manners. At some level every normal human past an early developmental stage is aware of those relations and contexts and chooses accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/108 "2023-07-23T17:23:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re talking about people who dress specifically in some sort of oppositional defiant manner, but that doesn’t include me, or, I think, the people wearing shorts and t-shirts everywhere they go. They wear that _because it’s what they wear_, AFAICT. Them and most of their tribe. I agree with this. Yes, when i wear shorts and t-shirts, i think I’ll be in a venue where that’s not a serious problem. But I’m not making a statement (unless the image on the t-shirt makes a statement, which it sometimes does.) I’m wearing something that’s easy to wear and not uncomfortably warm. Recently, I’ve discovered that i really enjoy a chest pocket, and i often upgrade the t shirt to a Hawaiian shirt or similar. But that’s definitely for me, not for you. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/109 "2023-07-23T17:26:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d say it’s more Crowcore than anything else. _Love_ it! ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/110 "2023-07-23T17:28:29Z")
I think most people are extremely sensitive to more subtle class distinctions in clothing than “suit/no suit,” and those distinctions are still around. Also, more importantly, class is still around and camouflaging it, however poorly, helps nothing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/111 "2023-07-23T17:29:21Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > At some level every normal human past an early developmental stage is aware of those relations and contexts and chooses accordingly. I’m well aware of these relations and contexts. But they don’t place any restrictions on my clothing choices - I don’t work in an industry or locale with dress codes. So in what way are my clothing choices not driven purely by my aesthetics? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/112 "2023-07-23T17:31:39Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m not quite retired, but close, and, anecdata, i care more about attractive and fitting in now than i did as a teen. I am more aware of the benefits of both, i think. > > Also, as a teen, looking attractive within the range that was easy for me meant attracting unwanted and uncomfortable male attention. Now it mostly just garners me more respect. Being male I didn’t have to deal with the unwanted attention as a teen, but overall my own experience as a near-retiree echoes your own. I both recognize and value the benefits, whereas I did not do much of either as a youth. I live in a very casual zip code. But casual is not sloppy; people are very style- and snob-conscious. How I’m dressed affects how I’m treated. And to some small extent affects how I behave. I’ve told this story before, but I was in the IT biz from about age 40-50. I lived then in a different city than I do now. My work outfit was shiny dress shoes, nice dress slacks, and a dress shirt no tie. My weekend outfit was cargo shorts & a polo in sweltering summer versus heavy duty pants, flannel shirt, sweater, and leather jacket in the freezing winter. Going into the same stores or restaurants on M-F I was treated very differently vs on the weekend. I showered and shaved each day. I’m the same person of the same age regardless of weekday / weekend. Just the clothes changed. The difference was palpable. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/113 "2023-07-23T17:34:38Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > I think most people are extremely sensitive to more subtle class distinctions in clothing than “suit/no suit,” and those distinctions are still around. Class distinctions are definitely still around. But the most common clothing styles around at the moment are _not_ broad class indicators, the way they have been in the past. Jeans, khaki shorts and yoga pants aren’t class-bound. _Brands_, sure, but not overall styles. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/114 "2023-07-23T17:41:34Z")
You are projecting something about who you are to others that you are comfortable projecting. It is your aesthetic and it is your public image that declares to the world who you are. Curious, do wear the same sets of clothes when the plan for the day is a definite to be inside all day being seen by no one, maybe organizing for taxes? FWIW I personally struggle with my own self-contradiction - realizing that I am vain enough to not want to be seen as vain. My wife’s line is that she spends all our vanity dollars. I realize that I am on some level choosing to send a message about myself and who I want to think I am by being this way, about what I do and do not care about. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/115 "2023-07-23T17:45:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Class distinctions are definitely still around. But the most common clothing styles around at the moment are _not_ broad class indicators, the way they have been in the past. Jeans, khaki shorts and yoga pants aren’t class-bound. It has I think become a status symbol to eschew obvious status symbols. Better the subtle ones that peacock only to a smaller target audience. Grossly advertising your class is gross. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/116 "2023-07-23T17:47:26Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You are projecting something about who you are to others that you are comfortable projecting Sure. But that’s not _why_ I do it. And that was the question in the OP. I do it because _I_ like how I look in my clothes, and how my hair looks, etc.. That is all. Question for you (for everyone, really) - how long does it take you to get dressed? And how long do you look at yourself in the mirror when you do so? I could get dressed in 2 minutes, but the looking at myself in the mirror makes that at least 10, most days. > [@DSeid](#): > > Curious, do wear the same sets of clothes when the plan for the day is a definite to be inside all day Yes. > [@DSeid](#): > > being seen by no one, I’m married with kids, I’m never seen by no-one all day. Plus, like I said, _I_ see me. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/117 "2023-07-23T17:51:51Z")
No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/118 "2023-07-23T17:52:53Z")
Was that supposed to be a coherent response to something anyone in this thread has said? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/119 "2023-07-23T17:53:39Z")
Yes. Definitely so. Because one subtext of the debate here is about whether individuals are more important than communities, or vice versa. And secondly, is there a level at which individual choices have no effect at all upon the world they live in? I would argue that there is a balance to the first which we no longer even have any way of discussing, the weight is so skewed to the side of individualism. I would also, even more strongly, re the second, that there is no such level on this plane of reality. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/120 "2023-07-23T17:55:07Z")
Well, I’ll give the opacity of that post all due consideration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348.md?page=7)