# Do you dress and groom for yourself or for others? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348 "2023-07-21T12:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/121 "2023-07-23T18:03:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Question for you (for everyone, really) - how long does it take you to get dressed? And how long do you look at yourself in the mirror when you do so? Work days the whole process is under five minutes with an embarrassingly large portion of it choosing my tie. Or finding the one I want in the huge mass of ties hanging from hangers. Off days under two. Off days mirror is 10 seconds. Work days a minute getting the tie right. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/122 "2023-07-23T18:06:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Curious, do wear the same sets of clothes when the plan for the day is a definite to be inside all day being seen by no one, maybe organizing for taxes? Yes, except in rare situations when i need to dress up. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Question for you (for everyone, really) - how long does it take you to get dressed? And how long do you look at yourself in the mirror when you do so? I dunno, depends how long it takes to find my shoes. And now that we have screens-on at work, i try to wear a different Hawaiian shirt each day, instead of wearing one until it needs to be washed, and then moving on the the next. (Same shirts, just different order). But maybe 2-5 minutes. Longer of it’s getting closer to laundry day and i need to rummage for underwear i like, or the socks i prefer with today’s weather. I almost never look at myself in the mirror, except sometimes to check if my hair is astray, or when i have a rash or something i want to examine. Or, on those rare occasions when i need to dress up, which happen a couple times a year. Oh, and when i wear a name badge, i sometimes check to make sure it’s straight. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/123 "2023-07-23T18:08:47Z")
Personally, I’m very happy that public standards in dress have been simplified and that casual comfortable clothes are almost always acceptable. Yeah, i get that it matters what other people think when they see me. I’m happy with “unremarkable” while wearing comfortable clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/124 "2023-07-23T18:08:50Z")
I see that the definition of sending a message is so broad as to be meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/125 "2023-07-23T18:13:29Z")
By the way, I’m happy to enjoy looking at people who choose to dress up. I’m just not willing to put in the effort myself. But sometimes i notice someone who looks especially spiffy, and that’s fun. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/126 "2023-07-23T18:21:15Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Because one subtext of the debate here is about whether individuals are more important than communities, or vice versa. It’s not been the subtext of my posts. I have no hesitation in saying communities are more important than individuals. What clothes people choose to wear is almost completely irrelevant to that. And that “almost” is only there because I’m aware of e.g the Proud Boys uniform etc. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > And secondly, is there a level at which individual choices have no effect at all upon the world they live in? Whether I wore a red or black jumper today had absolutely no effect on the world I live in. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > I would argue that there is a balance to the first which we no longer even have any way of discussing, the weight is so skewed to the side of individualism. Then make that argument. Don’t just post opaque poetry. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > I would also, even more strongly, re the second, that there is no such level on this plane of reality. I disagree, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/127 "2023-07-23T18:35:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then make that argument. Don’t just post opaque poetry. Maybe it’s not opaque to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/128 "2023-07-23T18:35:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Question for you (for everyone, really) - how long does it take you to get dressed? And how long do you look at yourself in the mirror when you do so? I could get dressed in 2 minutes, but the looking at myself in the mirror makes that at least 10, most days. One minute - 2 max to get dressed. Clothes are underwear, jeans or shorts, and a polo shirt in summer, or pull over knit shirt in winter. Just doesn’t take more than a minute or 2 to get those on. Mirror time - zero. After I shower, I brush my hair straight back without looking in the mirror and let it dry. Don’t intentionally look in a mirror throughout the rest of the day. Heck, even if I’m going to a wedding or funeral, it takes no more than 3-4 minutes to put on a suit, shirt, and tie. And I know what it looks like on, so I don’t need to look in a mirror while doing it or after. Like I said, I’m happy to dress and groom myself how my wife prefers, because she has to look at me. I don’t have to (or care to.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/129 "2023-07-23T18:39:53Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Maybe it’s not opaque to everyone Translucent to me. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/130 "2023-07-23T18:45:29Z")
Getting dressed and getting “cleaned up” are two different things in my parlance. Getting dressed involves zero mirrors. Getting “cleaned up” comes first. Shower, towel-dry my (short) hair, comb it, brush teeth, deodorant, insert contact lenses, shave face, and apply hair spray. Usually in about that order. By far the longest individual step is shaving which takes 3 minutes flat. The whole shebang comes to about 8 minutes; I’ve timed it. I’m facing a mirror the whole time, but I’m usually paying little attention to my image in it. I can do most combing and shaving by feel without reference to my reflection, and the other activities have no need of sight at all. I can and have done the whole ritual in pre-dawn total darkness with no lights. Getting dressed is a matter of gathering the items and pulling them on in the right order: underpants, maybe undershirt, outer shirt, outer pants, socks, shoes; done. The selection process takes mere seconds. I know which style category of dress I’m going for, and each category and item is stored separately and used in mostly-FIFO order. Pulling them on in order is 1, maaaybe 2 minutes. Mirrors have no place in that process. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/131 "2023-07-23T18:57:12Z")
As mentioned up-thread, how you dress and present yourself in public is very much associated with age and circumstances. In my 1st decade of life, I cared not a whit how I looked in public. I’d wear whatever I could get out the door with, without incurring my parents’ wrath. In my 2nd decade of life, I was hyper-aware of how I dressed and presented myself in public, especially to those of the opposite sex. Hormones dominated. In my 3rd decade of life, I was hypo-aware of how I presented myself in public. It was a decade of school and hanging out with sloppy classmates. In my 4th decade of life, I was again hyper-aware of how I presented myself in public, though not as much as my 2nd decade. This was a decade of building a profession and attracting a life-mate (I attracted the wrong one, but that’s not important in this discussion). Every decade since my fourth has been a downward trajectory insofar as being aware or concerned about how I presented myself in public and adhering to trends in fashion. Looking _not bad_ was good enough. Now, in my 7th decade of life, I’ve come full circle and once again care not a whit about fashion or how I appear to others (it’s good to be a kid again). Mind you, I don’t wish to offend the aesthetic sensibilities of others by dressing full-bore Walmart Shopper. I just want to wear the most comfortable clothes I can that don’t draw attention one way or the other. I’m not anti- or asocial—I enjoy pleasant chats with those I meet in the wild. But, I’m happy to simply blend into the background, like a chameleon, or Mimic Octopus. High fashion is a young person’s game (or perhaps, not an old person’s game). I do lament younger people not dressing as generations from long ago used to dress (before my time) in public. Seeing photos of folks dressed to the nines just walking down the street, flying on planes, going to the market, and wot-not made for an appealing landscape. And, I do believe what you wear has an effect on how you behave, at least to a degree. Dress like a slob, feel like a slob, act like a slob. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/132 "2023-07-23T19:35:48Z")
Works for me! ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/133 "2023-07-23T19:44:25Z")
On the question of comfort, speaking only of men’s clothing, if your “formal wear,” whatever you take that to be, isn’t comfortable then it doesn’t fit properly, you’ve tied your tie with pliers, it is made of some user-unfriendly material, or is inappropriate for the season. I am no more likely to feel too hot in a summer weight jacket and slacks than in shorts, and I “suffer” from hot flashes as the result of hormone therapy. In my experience, it’s a matter of attitude, not some value of “comfort,” that leads to The Great Informality. As for clothing and status, my university students, most of whom are working class and middle class, regale me with all sorts of clothing cues of class they are hip to. Some of it is brands, yes, but a lot of it is not. And they are even age-specific. It is startling. As a simple example, I suspect most of us could spot the manager among the retail clerks they manage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/134 "2023-07-23T19:48:50Z")
Good for you. > [@Kropotkin](#): > > As for clothing and status, my university students, most of whom are working class and middle class, regale me with all sorts of clothing cues of class they are hip to. Sure - but _overall_ styles are not it. Not with the societal demise of the suit. > [@Kropotkin](#): > > a lot of it is not. Care to give examples? Because I’ve already given examples of styles I find to be class-agnostic - jeans, khakis, athleisure wear… I see lots of markers of various subcultures, but not a lot of markers of pure social class in modern clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/135 "2023-07-23T20:30:23Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > I am no more likely to feel too hot in a summer weight jacket and slacks than in shorts, … That seems curious to me, that someone would wear a jacket and slacks, with presumably a shirt and socks and shoes, and not feel at least slightly warmer than a person wearing the same shirt sans jacket, shorts instead of slacks, and sandals w/o socks instead of shoes and socks. The ONLY similar experience I would have is one lightweight UV protective “outdoors” shirt from REI or somesuch. When hiking in heat up to and over 100F, I felt no warmer wearing that than in a sleeveless tee. In fact, likely felt cooler for not having the sun beat directly on my skin. I do not disbelieve you if you say it is true. But it seems counterintuitive to me. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/136 "2023-07-23T20:37:25Z")
How much time one spends outdoors vs indoors, shade vs sun, wind vs not, humidity of their local climate, how overweight they are/aren’t all matter greatly to the personal perception of how clothes affect perceived temperature. There’s also simple personal preference. I am always cold indoors. Indoors requires long and heavy clothes to keep the drafty miserable chill of HVAC off me. Outdoors in the direct sun loose-fitting clothing can be cooler than bare skin. Outdoors in the shade there’s little difference, but in the shade in the breeze bare skin is definitely cooler than is loose fitting clothing. etc. On the topic of more formal clothes being hotter, there's definitely a perception / prejudice that formal clothes \*must\* be tightly fitted. A dress shirt collar that isn't snug against your neck is too big. A tie that isn't pushing back at your Adam's apple is too loose. A dress shirt that's not snug across the chest and belly is too baggy. etc. The whole point of formal clothes is to force you into an erect rigid posture because the close-cut cloth prevents slouching or bending. etc. That’s mostly obsolete bunk, but a lot of people evidently think that way. And for them, more layers of more formal attire → more hot and less comfortable. And the heavier they are the more that is true. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/137 "2023-07-23T20:40:21Z")
It is surprising, but there is a wicking effect, especially with socks, and a good insulating effect from outside heat, with some air flow to keep things moving. Of course, at some point, one must dash through the sprinkler or fire hydrant, and at that point, all bets and clothes are off. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/138 "2023-07-23T20:50:48Z")
> [@Digger11](#): > > > [@alovem](#): > > > > What a load of crap. No matter how much of that cheap perfume that you seem to think is flowery language you spray on it, it still smells like elitism. > > If it’s elitist to judge people for willingly wearing pants with rips and holes in them, then I’m an elitist. Far too many people these days have blown right past “comfortable & casual,” and gone to “sloppy & slovenly.” Such people are very unlikely to contribute anything worthwhile to society. On occasion I wear $1200 suits. I seriously doubt I contribute “anything worthwhile to society”. But I generally prefer to get asked “what kind of work do you do?” instead of “do you have jury duty today?”. I guess I don’t have a problem being considered “elitist” if that means dressing well (or at least put together) and enjoying a certain degree of financial and professional success and living a more metropolitan lifestyle. Obviously I don’t wear suits all the time, so mostly I dress in more casual clothes. Mostly classic styles in good quality brands that last more than one season. Stuff I can pretty much wear anywhere without looking weird or out of place. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/139 "2023-07-23T20:57:09Z")
There is much wisdom in this post ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348/140 "2023-07-23T22:02:26Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > One minute - 2 max to get dressed. Clothes are underwear, jeans or shorts, and a polo shirt in summer, or pull over knit shirt in winter. Just doesn’t take more than a minute or 2 to get those on. > > Mirror time - zero. After I shower, I brush my hair straight back without looking in the mirror and let it dry. Don’t intentionally look in a mirror throughout the rest of the day. Same. I work from home and go into ‘town’ a couple of times a week. People at elevation/mountains dress practically. If you see someone in a suit. Means someone got married. Or died. Met my wife in town yesterday afternoon for early dinner. Ate on the deck. Good restaurant. Shorts, a fleece and hiking shoes. No, wait, I actually put on a button up shirt cause it was kinda hot. If, on the very rare occasion that I see my boss or grand boss in person, I wear the same clothes that I do at home or going to the grocery store. We all do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-dress-and-groom-for-yourself-or-for-others/987348.md?page=8)