Bill Watterson hit the nail on the head for me:
http://www.ucomics.com/calvinandhobbes/viewch.cfm
26 December 1986
Veb - are you the new breed of librarian? You’re so sympathetic! Ours are nice too, now, but the librarians at the public library when I was growing up in the 50’s would have put King’s Policeman to shame. Talk about inciting terror!
I didn’t go to the library for a whole year – I think between 5th and 6th grade – because of a lost book, that my parents couldn’t afford to pay for. Or at least I thought they couldn’t – I was afraid to ask.
What misery! Limited to the school library, which meant only getting books at my grade level.
I don’t remember how I got back into the town library’s good graces. Somebody probably died.
I LOVE LIBRARIES!!!
Librarians ROCK bigtime!!!
I get a warm self-congratulatory glow when I pay a library fine! Weirdly, the librarians actually look a bit embarassed when asking me to pay a fine that has been caused by me being too absent-minded/lazy to bring the book back on time. I enjoy paying library fines!!!
Hey, TVeblen, do you have an “Ook!” badge?
OK, I know that this is my own fault, but I have (on rare occasion) kept a book out so long that the accrued fines were so high that they equaled the cost of the actual book. According to libary rules, they couldn’t assess fines higher than the book’s cost, so that’s where they’d be cut off.
Now, in my mind…if I owe fines equal to the book’s cost, why should I pay the fine and return the book? In these cases, I paid up, but never returned the book. I’ve always thought that it would have been to everyone’s benefit if they’d either given me amnesty if I’d just given the book back (preventing the necessity of them replacing the book with my fine), or at least giving me a break on the amount of the fine so that I’d have an incentive to return the book.
Yes, I felt guilty…but not guilty enough to give something for nothing. Does that make me a horrible person??
Another librarian checking in.
I’m in a small branch of a good size tech college. We no longer charge fines because they’re a hassle, but if you get too late, we lock up your records. No grades, registration, transcripts, etc. We aren’t in it for money, we just want the book back.
I have no problem with overdues, I get them myself. I’m only bothered by the people who try to sneak things back on the shelves and claim they’ve paid, or create an elaborate story about how they’ve never heard of the book and this must be some horrible mistake.
But you folks are all gems for caring. Perfect patrons! Consider yourselves absolved for Lent.
I don’t think the cops are going to bust my bunco groups even though we do play for money. The pot only grows to $60 so it’s not like we’re high stakes or anything.
Bunco is played with dice. You have 3 tables with 4 people at each table. The person sitting directly across from you is your partner for that round. You play several rounds of each number on the dice. The object is for your team to have the most points at the end of that round. It’s kind of hard to explain but it’s really easy to play. It’s mainly just a way for us to get together to eat and get drunk. 
Sorry for the hijack!
Well, thanks for my edjumacation of the day, Grace. I truly did not know that bunco was really a dice game–I thought it meant gambling generally or was a made-up TV thing, 'cause they never have it at the local Casino nights.
[topic diversion]
I always thought the bunko squad was reference to the police division dealing with scams and rip-offs (boiler room schemes, etc), not necessarily gambling.
And my grandmother, as well as one of my former co-workers, would play bunco weekly. Gramma hosted it on the 3rd Thursday, and I would drive over and help her set up the tables. Never understood the game, though.
[/topic diversion]
screech-owl
(who is home sick from work with a nasty cough, no voice, and chest congestion but is glad to finally have the chance to sit on her butt and watch the two Black Adder I tapes borrowed from the library that aren’t due for two weeks but should finally get them over with)
I snickered my way through your post, AuntiePam. Yeah, we’ve really loosened up lately. I can remember a few of those imposing old battleaxes: bright, as rigid as their corsets and meaner’n snakes. It’s funny/sad how many older adults almost slink into the library, visibly reverting back to childhood. In some ways they’re the toughest to serve because they’re like shy woodland creatures. You almost have to hunt them down and tranquilize them before they’ll accept help.
I mean, you can see they’re confused by the computers, the shelving system, etc. but if you approach them they freeze like a faun in the hunting lights. The first words out their mouths are usually, “I’m sorry.” No sudden movements, enough soft-voiced reassurances–sometimes I wish we could offer them kibble–and eventually they realize it’s perfectly welcome and okay to ask a question.
TPWombat, you are a mensch!
Nope, I don’t have an “OOK!” button. ‘Tis the season for us to wear our “Tax forms, yes; tax advice, no” buttons, though. Sigh. Blippin’ IRS.
“Can I claim my neice’s kids who are living with me as dependents?”
“Does the library have a copy of my tax return from last year?”
Is it April 16th yet?
That’s weird; if the fine runs to the value of the book, then what you’re paying for is a replacement copy. Yeah, you have bought the book. That sure doesn’t make you horrible. If anything it makes you sensible.
FWIW, a lot of books go out of print so quickly it’s a colossal hassle to get a usable replacement copy. It’s gotten somewhat easier w/ so many used book sites around, but replacements can still be a pain.
IMO it’s just common sense to waive at least part of the fine and get the book back. The only time this really infuriates me is when people find a much-loved title at the library and just keep it, i.e. in effect using the library as a used bookstore for hard-to-find titles. We have one harcore SF fan who’s pretty much stripped the collection of nifty older titles. Odd how he keeps “losing” and paying for them, one after another.
Sorry, I just went off on another ramble.
Veb
Another librarian chiming in.
Disclaimer: I’m not criticizing you for having this philosophy, because, on the face of it, it seems like a logical one.
The cost to replace a book, however, is usually more than the price of the book.
Lemme splain:
Let’s say, for example, you borrow a $10 book, then keep it out 'til it accrues $10 worth of fines, then opt to pay the fine but not return the book. The library then has two options - replace the book or not replace it.
Assuming first off that overdue fines can be applied to the materials budget (instead of, say, being legally earmarked for the building fund, or the summer reading program), then they have $10 to put towards the new copy.
If it is a book that is available from a major vendor like Baker&Taylor, they could be eligible for a library discount of 37.5% (which is my local library’s negoitiated discount). That makes the initial cost of the book itself go down to $6.25. If it is only available direct from the publisher, and that publisher is a small press, they have to kiss the discount goodbye, but we’ll assume for the moment that they are ordering from a big vendor.
To that you have to add shipping costs, which for the sake of argument we’ll put at $1.00 for our book.
If you are not doing electronic ordering, you add in postage for the Purchase Order and the Invoice, at $0.68
The labor costs in ordering might run along the lines of:
15 minutes to create, approve and send the Purchase Order.
15 minutes to receive the book, create, approve and send the invoice.
15 minutes to process the book (doing things like barcoding it, removing, replacing or reinforcing the book jacket, stiffening the cover it if it is a paperback, inserting security tags, creating, printing and applying spine labels, card pockets, due slips, etc).
If you could get a minimum wage employee to perform all the steps, your labor costs are now $5.06 (based on the current Massachusetts state Minimum Wage of $6.75).
Material costs for the barcode, protective cover, security tags, bandaids if the processor gets a papercut,etc, we can estimate at $1.00.
This does not take into account any of the following:
- money invested in the original copy to repair/rebind it/rebarcode it, etc
- any increase in the cost of a new copy since they bought their original copy. You may be paying as a fine the 1996 price for a book they have to replace at the 2001 price. The record will have the cost entered as what they originally paid for it. Local regulations may prevent the librarians from entering a cost which accurately reflects what it will cost to replace the book.
- postage, if the library sent out a paper notice to you to let you know that the book was overdue or that you were being billed for it, or for staff time spent checking the shelves for the book before the notice was sent out.
- the labor and material costs paid out for the original copy
So a conservative estimate of the money spent to replace a $10.00 book:
6.25 discounted book cost
- 1.68 shipping and postage
- 5.06 labor costs for processing
- 1.00 materials cost for processing
= $13.99.
A mid-sized US Public library has to make a decision about replacing a couple of hundred lost, stolen or just-plain not-returned books each year. Some they can replace with a small increased cost, some can be replaced with a large increased cost, and some can’t be replaced at all because they are unavailable or prohibitively expensive.
Replace 3 $10.00 books at a cost of $14.00 each, and that’s one less new $12.00 book they can add to the collection.
So, is this way more than you ever wanted to know about libraries?
As far as feeling guilty about library fines? No, I don’t usually, for many of the reasons that people have already given, and because I rarely keep them out long enough to get a notice, and when that does happen, it is an email notice which keeps some of their costs down. I pay about $50 a year in overdue fines, and give contributions whenever I borrow their museum passes and things like that.
Not a librarian, but an employee of a library automation software company. (I wonder if I’ve ever done any work for Veb, kaiju, or Motorgirl?)
I don’t have anything to add about paying fines - all libraries expect to have late returns, and some smaller ones count on the added revenue generated by fines to help offset the costs of miscellaneous items.
D Marie - At some point, your overdue fines might come back to haunt you, unless…
The library’s automation system crashed at some point. I’ve done literally hundreds of system restores, and I have never seen one where at least a few transaction records were lost. You just may have been lucky that day. Then again, maybe not.
Your best bet would be to go back to the library and ask again, and if they still have no record, see if you can get a printout stating that, or some kind of note. If for some reason the Library Policeman hunts you down in 5 years, at least you can make a case for only being responsible for fines up to the date of the printout.
In my life I’ve had a total of $10 in fines at various libraries. I don’t feel guilty, I pay up and borrow a new book. I love libraries, I’d be a librarian if there were any jobs here in Sweden that would actually pay off my student loans before I retire.
A few years ago, the paper ran a story about my hometown library. One man had over a thousand books at home. He had checked them out and kept calling in renewals for each and every one of them. I suppose he borrowed really obscure books since he was able to renew the loans on them. The librarians were really upset about this, but there was nothing they could do. If no one had ordered the books, he was free to renew the loans. What I’ve been thinking about ever since (it was at least five years ago) is why didn’t the librarians put in orders for the books? I mean, if I wanted a book back, I’d take some measures to make sure it was returned, albeit a little sneaky measures.
The thing that makes me feel guilty about library fines is how cheap they are. I work in a video store and regularly take about 4 bucks from someone who kept a movie one day late. I can keep a library book away from someone who wants to read it after me for about a month before I get a $4 fine. I feel like I’m cheating the system and getting away scot-free.
Jeez…now I really do feel guilty. 
Do I get any bonus points for donating all of the bestsellers that my Grandmother used to buy from book clubs, read once, and then forward on to me? I did this a number of times. <insert abject pleading smiley here>
Book: Culture of Fear: Why Americans are afriad of the wrong things.
Author: Robert Glassner
Due: August 3, 2000
Location: Unknown
Fines thus far: Roughly $21
Does anyone know if they can fine you for more than the price of the book?Do you mean can the fine just keep accruing forever? Hypothetically, sure; I don’t know of anyplace that actually does it. There have funny news stories about conscience-stricken folks who calculated the daily fine rate on books they’d had for years and paid it.
Sorry, but the juxtapostion of your question and the title cracks me up: Culture of fear: why Americans are afraid of the wrong things. I picture the Cyberhwks and chicks cowering in fear for years, terrified of avenging librarians.
Slight hijack: one classic cartoon from a library journal shows a goggle-eyed little boy bound and gagged in a chair beside a desk. Behind the desk is a battleaxe librarian talking into the phone: “We aren’t fooling around any more. You have our book; we have your son.”
Veb
This just occured to me: DO any of your libraries offer amnesty periods, i.e. chances to return any overdue book for free?
We offer them on a very irregular basis. (We don’t want to build a habit of thinking, “well, it’s already overdue so I’ll just keep for a year or so until I can return it for free.”) But it’s a nice chance to clear the accounts.
Actually ours aren’t exactly free. We usually offer them in winter when heating costs, etc. are hitting people hard. They’re “Food For Fines” periods, usually running for a few weeks. People can return any overdue item and clear the fine in exchange for any non-perishable food stuff. We get the books back and the food’s donated to either the local homeless shelter or community food pantry. -->big smile<-- As you might expect, people who don’t owe a cent still bring in food anyway.
Veb
:::blink:::
Veb, I wanna go to your library! I promise I’ll just have the teensiest little bit of kibble, I’ll be really quiet and I won’t bother anyone. “Soft-voiced reassurances.” There’s a phrase to comfort the skittish.
The last batch of fines I had to pay at my public library were $52.50 in total, and I returned all the books that I had taken out (i.e. not paying for a lost book). I felt kinda guilty, but usually it doesn’t bother me. I just think of fines as donations.
I also think I owe about $30 bucks at my University library. I really need to stay on top of things more.
And, as a small aside, I just want to thank all of you librarians for doing such a wonderful job. I shudder to think of life without my library.
Isn’t it true that some libraries don’t even own the books they lend? I once bought a book from a used bookstore that had that plastic library cover and a card pocket inside, and assumed that meant it had been stolen from a library and then sold/given to the bookstore.
But the bookseller explained that many libraries rent books for a time. Bestsellers mostly, the kind that will be briefly popular but then moulder unread. Once the book passes out of currency the books go back to the lending company, and are then often resold to used bookstores.
True?
If true, how does this wrinkle fit into the economics lesson Motorgirl gave us?