# Do you have a spirit? What is it? How do you know? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 8, 2023, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245 "2023-08-08T12:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/81 "2023-08-10T01:54:02Z")
Well, at least I can have the peace of mind of knowing that I’m not going to be one of those posters that people wish were still around. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/82 "2023-08-10T02:25:30Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > **Do not believe** there is any intangible ‘spirit’ that transcends the physical function of our body and brain > **AND** > **Do believe** , in the ‘transporter thought experiment’, that you die and are replaced by an impostor Yes on both. My physical form, and the place where my mind resides, is a continuous region of spacetime. It’s an unbroken tube of 4-dimensional meat. It’s a little fuzzy on the edges, since it’s incorporating new atoms along the length, but the problem is no worse than defining the boundaries of any other physical object. Teleportation nevertheless implies a break in this continuous object. You can put one 4D object inside a box and the other outside the box. Therefore, different objects with different identities. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/83 "2023-08-10T08:02:04Z")
Sure, but in the teleporter scenario, the device is purported to be a thing that joins or connects the two cut ends of those pieces perfectly and seamlessly in such a way that there is no physical way to tell they were ever apart. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/84 "2023-08-10T09:26:43Z")
If they are separated physically (or in time), then by definition they don’t connect. One piece is over here, and the other piece over there. Maybe you say the ends match up perfectly, but they aren’t in the same place at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/85 "2023-08-10T10:17:11Z")
That this distinction matters, when continuity of all processes would be the same as it were if it had been truly continuous is what makes it weird; it’s like you’re saying something departed from the process, at the same time as saying there is nothing that _could_ depart. A portal (such as in the game) which connects two separate pieces of space would also sever the continuity of your spacetime sausage, but in doing so create it’s own mode of perfect continuity for objects passing through it. If you step through a portal, do you die to be replaced by an impostor the other side? ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/86 "2023-08-10T10:24:19Z")
Thank you. I’m not really sure how to think about the subject. I don’t know. I’m just peering into everyone’s thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/87 "2023-08-10T13:24:59Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I have been in both camps, and I can say without reservation that it is not at all difficult for non-believers to understand faith. Absolutely possible, because we all possess the mechanisms that correlate to belief, and, though it might take some effort, it can be understood just as easily as a believer might be able to understand unbelief In addition to that, even if one doesn’t believe in anything spiritual, it is still possible to be a non-believer and be “moved” by certain things. So belief, IMHO, is very easy to understand except that non-believers will probably apply a lot more critical thinking to the phenomenon, rather than assuming that the being moved was some sort of divine thing. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/88 "2023-08-10T15:18:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > A portal (such as in the game) which connects two separate pieces of space would also sever the continuity of your spacetime sausage, but in doing so create it’s own mode of perfect continuity for objects passing through it. If you step through a portal, do you die to be replaced by an impostor the other side? I would disagree. A “wormhole” transporter (if that is what you are describing) would be like walking through a door. No discontinuity. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/89 "2023-08-10T20:04:29Z")
There is absolutely a discontinuity in spacetime. That’s literally what a wormhole is. If you consider yourself to only be the same living being if your existence forms a continuous sausage of meat and duration through 4 dimensions, then transporters, portals and time machines are all death to you as they cut the sausage in half (joined by a dotted line, as it were) in either space, time or both. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/90 "2023-08-10T20:15:58Z")
Would people who believe their souls would be transferred over to the new body be as willing if the process was more accurately described? “If you would kindly step into the disintegration chamber, we will promptly transfer your memories to your clone”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/91 "2023-08-10T20:26:34Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s literally what a wormhole is. It’s unknown if wormholes actually exist. They probably don’t. If one is large enough to fit my body without disassembly, and the laws of physics are shown to be totally consistent across the threshold, then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. My spacetime extent might be bent into a pretzel, but it would still be continuous. The usual analogy is a sheet of rubber that’s been folded over, and with some pairs of holes where the edges have been glued together. There’s still a continuous path from one point to another, even if you’re going across the universe. > [@Mangetout](#): > > then transporters, portals and time machines are all death to you Portals, probably not, for the reason above. Unless they’re just molecular disassembly devices. Time machines–maybe. I mean they probably aren’t physically possible, so who knows? Except for the mundane type of time machine, where I move more rapidly forwards through time because I’m in a fast spaceship. But that’s still continuous. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/92 "2023-08-10T20:27:04Z")
It’s not the people who believe in souls that are the sticking point. I think if you’re certain there is an immaterial soul, it’s entirely consistent with that belief that disassembly of the body would disconnect it, sending it off to join the heavenly choir or whatever. It’s the people who believe that your experience and identity as a person is entirely an outcome of physical processes in your physical body. If we were able to take a perfect momentary snapshot of the state of every particle of your body, then restore that snapshot perfectly somewhere else, so that the processes creating your experience and identity resume perfectly as if there had been no interruption, it’s inconsistent to call that death. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/93 "2023-08-10T20:27:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s literally what a wormhole is. A wormhole is literally a connection between two places in space-time. There’s nothing “in” the wormhole. You go in “here” and come out “there”. They’re the same space, like the door analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/94 "2023-08-10T20:28:25Z")
But from the point of view of the flat universe, your 4D-spacetime-meat-tube is in two pieces ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/95 "2023-08-10T20:33:26Z")
No, it just looks that way. The universe is really curved and every path a particle takes is continuous. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/96 "2023-08-10T20:33:39Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If we were able to take a perfect momentary snapshot of the state of every particle of your body, then restore that snapshot perfectly somewhere else, so that the processes creating your experience and identity resume perfectly as if there had been no interruption, it’s inconsistent to call that death. Would you agree to do it if it was described in the manner I posted? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/97 "2023-08-10T20:50:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you agree to do it if it was described in the manner I posted? No way! The rest of the universe couldn’t tell anything has changed. They’d be fine talking to the new me. But I could. or, I could were I still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/98 "2023-08-10T20:50:42Z")
Its irrelevant ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/99 "2023-08-10T21:09:34Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > your 4D-spacetime-meat-tube is in two pieces Also, don’t confuse artifacts of the coordinate system with actual discontinuities. Take a flexible 1-meter tape measure. It has markings that go up in one direction. Connect the ends in a loop, and it looks like there’s a discontinuity–it went from 100 cm down to 0! But the markings are arbitrary. You could move the _apparent_ discontinuity anywhere else and it would work the same way. In practice, the loop is totally continuous. The universe itself has no markings, just a notion of locality (the idea that you can get anywhere by making small steps to neighboring locations). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245/100 "2023-08-10T21:21:50Z")
It is accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-a-spirit-what-is-it-how-do-you-know/988245.md?page=6)