# Do you have any sympathy for all the auto dealers being shut down? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650 "2009-05-16T15:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/21 "2009-05-17T04:04:26Z")
I don’t see why I should be any more or less happy than I would about any other employer going out of business. ---
**Author:** ![groo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@groo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/22 "2009-05-17T06:12:01Z")
I heard one dealer complaining on the radio about how he “played by the rules and worked hard,” and now the company was “throwing him aside like trash.” He didn’t, however, mention how he’d watched, for several decades, as the US auto industry gradually lost most of its customer base by selling crappy cars. Yes, I know that US car companies were getting higher marks for reliability in recent years, and if they’d managed to do that early enough that they could build up some customer good will, they’d be in business and not need any sympathy. As a nominally normal human, I feel bad for people affected indirectly by these dealership closings, but however good your work ethic, if you’re making products that don’t sell enough to sustain your business, you’re going to go out of business. I hope this doesn’t sound as callous as, “Maybe you should work in a field where you aren’t showing up with 2000 other applicants,” but really, the fact that GM is in big trouble should not have taken anyone by surprise. The innocent janitors and receptionists at these car dealerships could, theoretically, have watched news programs, read newspapers or magazines or even talked with people they knew who purchased cars or drove cars or rode in cars. They could have formed an opinion regarding the manufacturers’ long-term viability. I believe that oil prices may rise at some point in the future. This may end up being a surprise to some people, because sometimes these things happen very quickly, being influenced by the politics of many chaotic countries. If auto companies want to sell cars in that environment, it would behoove them to not to say, “Hey, if you loan us billions of dollars, we could change our factories over to making fuel efficient cars, too.” Instead, they’ll need to have a long record of making quality fuel-efficient cars as a result of their good business sense. Having a Volt carted around to auto shows is not creating a long track record. Selling hybrids for several years, and being on your third generation of hybrid design **does** mean you have a track record. I won’t bore you with a tired old EV1 rant, but GM could right now have a 13 year track record of producing and improving electric cars, and doubtless they could have leveraged the expertise in electric motors and efficient batteries that they would have developed, and could have put a practical hybrid on the market at the same time (or even before) Toyota’s Prius and Honda’s first Insight. They didn’t stop production of the EV1 in a vacuum; they did it while people were pleading with them to keep the EV1 alive. It’s been quite common over the years to see a US auto dealership have a building next door where they sell an Asian brand. If their town could only support one dealership, I think they were doing a tremendous disservice to their town by making fewer options available to their customers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/23 "2009-05-17T16:05:47Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > And **RickJay** , there is a company out there just like you describe. I work for them. Well, tell me who they are so I can come shop for a car. And for the record, I specifically expressed sympathy for employees who lose their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/24 "2009-05-17T16:39:58Z")
It sucks for the salaried/wage earning folks who got laid off, and I feel sorry for them. I feel less sorry for the commissioned salespeople, primarily because the primary means for them to make money (sometimes big money) is to jerk the customer around. I don’t feel any sympathy whatsoever for the dealership owners. They invested their capital and took a risk. That risk didn’t pay off, or paid off, and they were raking in the cash. Tough titty- that’s the way it goes. Across the board though; while I may feel sympathetic, I hardly feel like the automakers are doing the wrong thing- is it better to keep them all open for a few more months, then everyone who works for them loses their jobs, or is it better to shitcan a few now, and hopefully the rest of the company survives and more people keep their jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/25 "2009-05-17T16:51:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I feel bad for any employee destined to lose their job. > > But I’d agree that it’s hard to feel bad for dealership owners, who willingly participate in an industry that tries to obfuscate the real price of their product and uses deception and pressure to fool their customers into paying more than the product is really worth. If a dealer came out with a policy of “We’re cutting our prices to what we’re actually willing to sell them for and will sell our cars for that price and not a penny more or less,” I’d buy there. There’s no such thing as the “real price” for a product. The price for anything is what the parties to the transaction agree it will be. Furthermore, you should be happy that dealerships sell to some people at a higher price than you are willing to buy for because it allows the dealer to discount the car sold to you. ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/26 "2009-05-17T18:18:03Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > you should be happy that dealerships sell to some people at a higher price than you are willing to buy for because it allows the dealer to discount the car sold to you. I should be happy about the possibility of getting ripped off when buying a car? You sound like the guy we had on here that claimed that if I have a phone I want telemarketers to call me and consent to any such calls. I say good riddance to the dealers. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/27 "2009-05-17T18:23:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There’s no such thing as the “real price” for a product. The price for anything is what the parties to the transaction agree it will be. Furthermore, you should be happy that dealerships sell to some people at a higher price than you are willing to buy for because it allows the dealer to discount the car sold to you. What they need to do is take their average price, what 20-30k? And make it 16k for those cars. I’d be surprised if they were worth more. If the economy is going to go back in time, maybe these prices should too. Yeah, it may have cost that much to build a car, but the market will pay for the right price. Maybe they’ll get something back. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/28 "2009-05-17T18:31:17Z")
I have a level of human sympathy for employees losing their jobs. I have less sympathy for investors of capital (dealership owners) receiving a poor return. Live by the sword, die by the sword. The US auto manufacturing and dealership model has not been working well as a business model. It would also be a poor model for a welfare program (which would be evaluated on equity and efficiency grounds), so I’m not inclined to support it as such, either. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/29 "2009-05-17T18:56:48Z")
People lose their jobs. That’s what happens in life. I see no reason to up the sympathy level just because they all happen to work in the same place. The closing of a 40-person dealership isn’t any different than 40 closings of a 1-person company. ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/30 "2009-05-17T19:40:07Z")
No sympathy here for Lithia. They bought the bigest Ford dealer in the area and ran it into the ground. Now, Chrysler wants to do away with that portion of their business. Good riddance to them!!! ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/31 "2009-05-17T19:41:16Z")
I know the tone of the thread has now changed to “those poor, poor, dealership employees” but I’m still going to say I honestly have zero sympathy. I’ve been fucked over too many times by car dealerships. I started young and it took me awhile to learn my lesson, but I will NEVER deal with another car saleman again as long as I live. The necessary people, i.e., mechanics, officeworkers, etc, will find work because they do a job that people need. Car salesmen are useless middlemen whose only purpose is to suck extra money out of the buyer to line their and their bosses’ pockets. Maybe it didn’t used to be this way but these days they typically don’t even know a damn thing about the cars they are selling. Last time I was at the dealership getting service I got to talking to one of the salesmen and told him countless things about a car he was trying to sell that were completely unknown to him. No, I have no sympathy for car dealers going out of business. Fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/32 "2009-05-17T20:42:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t understand the question. > > A couple of days ago I bought lunch for about 7 bucks. Do you have sympathy for me, or the person who sold me lunch, or neither of us? > > The point is that closing dealerships is a business transaction. Sympathy has no place in it and is a rather odd thing to talk about in this context. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t see why I should be any more or less happy than I would about any other employer going out of business. I agree with both of these. There was a restaurant that closed nearby. It’s unfortunate, it put people out of work, but a couple months later someone bought the place and is putting a new business in its place. Businesses come and go. I admit the automaker/dealership relationship is not something I’m completely clear on, but I’m not sure why I should care if the local GM dealership is going to close, any more than I should care about any other local business closing. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/33 "2009-05-17T21:16:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Sympathy has no place in it and is a rather odd thing to talk about in this context. I think the reason it is being introduced is because we see them crying on TV as if they are special somehow. They played the sympothy card first. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/34 "2009-05-17T21:19:27Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > I can’t believe how callous a lot of people are being about this. It makes me sad to see this on the board, and a little bit sick to read that some of you hope I lose my job. And **RickJay** , there is a company out there just like you describe. I work for them. I think ‘callous’ is a mischaracterization, mis-informed, ill-thought-out, naïve, are more apt. One one hand 90 out of every 100 people are still employed, but _EVERYONE_ is somehow affected, even if they haven’t lost their job. I’ve known pricks as coworkers, bosses, aquaintences and salesmen. I’ve also known some stellar people in the auto industry, and I wouldn’t wish ill on them. Lastly, as an economic entity, a manufacturer and it’s dealership chain are there to make a profit. If they cannot, they will not exist, regardless of the moral temper of their employees. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/35 "2009-05-17T21:36:39Z")
The dealership network has been a weak link in the automobile chain for decades. The dealerships will cheat on price, or not do the repair work at all and charge you. I, and many people I know, drive by the dealer everyday when they have your car to see if they actually have done anything. Often it sat in the yard without moving then they charged you for work they did not do. Warranty work was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![bare](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bare/32/471_2.png) [@bare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bare)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/36 "2009-05-17T22:29:44Z")
It’s hard for me to understand some of you folks’ outlooks. How is it going to be better for you with fewer dealerships? Especially for those of us that will be forced to drive or have our vehicles towed 150 miles for warranty work? Not to mention the expense of a replacement vehicle and having to make another 300 mile round trip to pick up the vehicle again? As far as I can see there is no advantage to me ever purchasing a new car that I can’t get serviced at a dealership. Might as well buy a used car that is out of warranty that I can have repaired locally. For those of you unhappy with a current dealership, how is it going to be better for you with less choice? Strikes me that it’s about the same thing as the Charmin toilet paper company telling me that the only place I can purchase their ass wipe is at Walmart, that my local store can no longer sell it. I’m not driving 60 miles to Walmart, I’m switching brands. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/37 "2009-05-18T23:51:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There’s no such thing as the “real price” for a product. The price for anything is what the parties to the transaction agree it will be. Furthermore, you should be happy that dealerships sell to some people at a higher price than you are willing to buy for because it allows the dealer to discount the car sold to you. It doesn’t “allow” the dealer to do anything. He’s not going to sell me a car at a loss if he’s sane, so he doesn’t need other sales at higher prices to subsidize the sale to me. And yes, thanks, I understand where prices come from. The difference between a car dealer and most other businesses is that the other business are up front about what their asking price of the product is. Car dealers are not. If you don’t know the difference, you’ve never bought a car. This isn’t completely unique to car dealers - fitness club memberships are infamously vague on price - but cars are just about the worst product for it, and there’s no good reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/38 "2009-05-19T02:21:05Z")
I have about as much sympathy for the dealerships, management, and salesmen (never had a saleswoman, never even seen one) as they’ve ever had for me when I had to buy a car. In other words, no. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/39 "2009-05-19T03:26:56Z")
> [@bare](#): > > It’s hard for me to understand some of you folks’ outlooks…How is it going to be better for you with fewer dealerships? It’s not that fewer dealerships are better. It’s that I’m absolutely _thrilled_ that those fuckers at Liccardi on Route 22 are being shut down. I guess that $200 they stole from us didn’t go far enough, eh? Jerks. I do feel for the few good dealerships that are getting hit by this. But the rest of them? Fuck 'em. _\_ > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The point is that closing dealerships is a business transaction. Sympathy has no place in it and is a rather odd thing to talk about in this context. Have you been reading _Atlas Shrugged_ again? ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650/40 "2009-05-19T15:30:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It doesn’t “allow” the dealer to do anything. He’s not going to sell me a car at a loss if he’s sane, so he doesn’t need other sales at higher prices to subsidize the sale to me. > > And yes, thanks, I understand where prices come from. The difference between a car dealer and most other businesses is that the other business are up front about what their asking price of the product is. Car dealers are not. If you don’t know the difference, you’ve never bought a car. > > This isn’t completely unique to car dealers - fitness club memberships are infamously vague on price - but cars are just about the worst product for it, and there’s no good reason for it. Well, that is not really true. At this price point (ie above 10k), there is usually always an MSRP (which there is with cars as well) but very often there is negotiation and option room in there. Houses? Yep (think real estate agent). boats? High end electronics…name something that costs as much as a car that doesn’t obfuscate the “real” price somehow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-any-sympathy-for-all-the-auto-dealers-being-shut-down/496650.md?page=3)