# Do you have to be offended by personal insults for them to count **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 10, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229 "2010-07-10T17:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/1 "2010-07-10T17:16:34Z")
In this thread I made a joke involving raising Rand Rover’s taxes [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12649766&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12649766&postcount=1) > [@](#): > > All in all I don’t see how this is a good idea. I think the best idea is to raise Rand Rover’s taxes and spend it on ourselves. One man one vote. He found out and got mad [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12668118&postcount=49](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12668118&postcount=49) > [@](#): > > Of course you do. You are a violent person, and you make it worse by lacking the courage of your convictions. You aren’t man enough to come take my stuff yourself, so you enlist the government to do it for you. Which resulted in him getting an official warning. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12669395&postcount=52](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12669395&postcount=52) Anyway, my comment was meant as ribbing, not malicious. And I enjoyed his rebuttal about me being a violent person simply because I want to hire government officials to steal his stuff. So does the person being insulted actually have to feel insulted for a warning to occur? I wasn’t offended and didn’t want him to get a warning. And where is the line between joking and personal digs? Or trolling vs. banter? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/2 "2010-07-10T17:58:37Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > And where is the line between joking and personal digs? Or trolling vs. banter? At a guess, I’d say it’s around the line of being able to take a joke and not being able to take a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/3 "2010-07-10T19:31:47Z")
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect the mods to enforce the rules based on their perceptions of how the person at the other end of an insult felt about it – you kind of just have to draw a line about what is and isn’t an insult and enforce the same in all situations. That said, that thread kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. **Rand Rover** gets called out by name in the OP, responds with a scornful but hardly abusive post, and gets warned for it. Given the mildness of the “personal insult” and the fact that I’ve seen similar levels of mockery consistently go unwarned in GD for years, it ends up feeling a bit capricious. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/4 "2010-07-10T19:37:55Z")
Agreed Giraffe. Fear Itself has posted an insult toward me in that very same thread. Let’s see what happens . . . ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/5 "2010-07-10T21:00:59Z")
That’s a warning that needs retracting, **Marley**. **Rand Rover** got called out by name, and his riposte was relatively mild. If **Wesley Clark** gets off without a warning, then **Rand Rover** should, as well. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/6 "2010-07-10T21:07:31Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > That said, that thread kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. **Rand Rover** gets called out by name in the OP, responds with a scornful but hardly abusive post, and gets warned for it. Given the mildness of the “personal insult” and the fact that I’ve seen similar levels of mockery consistently go unwarned in GD for years, it ends up feeling a bit capricious. I agree. Especially since many libertarians make explicit connections between things like taxation and violence, arguing that the only reason the state is able to levy taxes is that the state can enforce its will using agents such as the police. And, to be honest, even though i’m not a libertarian, that’s not an especially problematic argument, in my opinion. While the authority of the state derives, or should derive, from the people, its ability to enforce that authority is a key aspect of its viability. Most people recognize that if they don’t pay taxes, the state can come and take their stuff and/or throw them in jail; most people realize that if they break the law, the state can do something similar. States are, pretty much by definition, institutions that rely on coercive abilities in order to function. I think i should be able to describe the libertarian worldview and libertarians as “selfish” and “utopian” in a GD thread; i don’t see why a libertarian shouldn’t be able to describe redistributive policies and those who advocate them as “violent” or “coercive.” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/7 "2010-07-10T21:14:27Z")
One more thing: While **Rand Rover** ’s “you aren’t man enough” comment might have been out of line for GD, i don’t think it was any more inappropriate than the OP’s gratuitous calling-out of **Rand Rover**. I’ve always thought that if you want to call someone out like that, then the Pit is the place to go. And if you want to debate a specific topic with a specific poster in GD, then you should be a little more courteous in inviting them to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/8 "2010-07-10T21:16:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’ve always thought that if you want to call someone out like that, then the Pit is the place to go. And if you want to debate a specific topic with a specific poster in GD, then you should be a little more courteous in inviting them to the discussion. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/9 "2010-07-10T21:16:58Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > One more thing: > > While **Rand Rover** ’s “you aren’t man enough” comment might have been out of line for GD, i don’t think it was any more inappropriate than the OP’s gratuitous calling-out of **Rand Rover**. > > I’ve always thought that if you want to call someone out like that, then the Pit is the place to go. And if you want to debate a specific topic with a specific poster in GD, then you should be a little more courteous in inviting them to the discussion. Why does everyone assume a statement like mine has to be malicious? Its no different than saying ‘hey, me and these hookers are all going to go shoot heroin and worship the devil, want to come?’ to a religious fundamentalist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/10 "2010-07-10T21:16:59Z")
What **Giraffe** said. It’s not practical or a good idea for us to enforce the rules differently based on how thick an individual poster’s skin is. After all most of the time we have no way to tell if a poster is going to be offended by a particular comment or not. > [@Oakminster](#): > > **Rand Rover** got called out by name, and his riposte was relatively mild. If **Wesley Clark** gets off without a warning, then **Rand Rover** should, as well. **Wesley Clark** ’s post was a bad idea in my opinion, but he didn’t insult **Rand Rover**. **Rand Rover** unambiguously insulted **Wesley Clark**. The situation doesn’t sit very well with me either, so I’ll see if any of the other moderators get a different reading on the situation than I did. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Fear Itself has posted an insult toward me in that very same thread. Let’s see what happens . . . I assume you’re interpreting this part as an insult, but I don’t see it: > [@Pros and cons of raising the retirement age](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-raising-the-retirement-age/545587/53): > > Of course, you find that annoying, because you believe the natural order is for the wealthy to exploit the poor, but social systems always find a way to equalize an imbalance of power. **Fear Itself** describes your beliefs in a way I assume you don’t like, but that doesn’t make the post an insult. > [@mhendo](#): > > I think i should be able to describe the libertarian worldview and libertarians as “selfish” and “utopian” in a GD thread; i don’t see why a libertarian shouldn’t be able to describe redistributive policies and those who advocate them as “violent” or “coercive.” He can describe the policies that way if he wants to. The problem is that made his comment at **Wesley Clark** , not at the policies in question. He called him “a violent person” who “[lacks] the courage of your convictions” and who “[isn’t] man enough to come take my stuff yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/11 "2010-07-10T21:25:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Wesley Clark** ’s post was a bad idea in my opinion, but he didn’t insult **Rand Rover**. **Rand Rover** unambiguously insulted **Wesley Clark**. The situation doesn’t sit very well with me either, so I’ll see if any of the other moderators get a different reading on the situation than I did. So raising a particular individual’s taxes to take his money and “spend it on ourselves” isn’t insulting, but lacking the courage of his convictions and not being man enough is? I know y’all really hate it when I argue this, but to me, this appears to be a blatant case of letting a lefty skate while you hammer a righty. I thought we’d been making considerable progress away from that kind of thing lately. This is a step back in the wrong direction. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/12 "2010-07-10T21:30:18Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Why does everyone assume a statement like mine has to be malicious? Its no different than saying ‘hey, me and these hookers are all going to go shoot heroin and worship the devil, want to come?’ to a religious fundamentalist. An important difference, though, is that you didn’t say it to him in the context of an ongoing debate. You called him out by name in a thread where he had not even participated. Instead of: > [@Pros and cons of raising the retirement age](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-raising-the-retirement-age/545587/1): > > I think the best idea is to raise Rand Rover’s taxes and spend it on ourselves. One man one vote. why not write: > [@](#): > > I think the best idea is to raise taxes on the wealthy and spend it on ourselves. One man one vote. ?? It doesn’t change the substance of your argument, and it has the benefit of not poisoning the well by taking a direct jab at another poster. As breaches of etiquette go, it’s not the worst thing in the world, and **Rand Rover** has demonstrated time and again that his skin is thick enough to take it, as well as dish it out in return. But i just don’t see the point of needling someone like that in the OP of a GD thread. Just MHO. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/13 "2010-07-10T21:32:27Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > So raising a particular individual’s taxes to take his money and “spend it on ourselves” isn’t insulting, but lacking the courage of his convictions and not being man enough is? Exactly. “We should raise taxes on [any poster]” is not a personal insult. “You are a violent person, and you make it worse by lacking the courage of your convictions” is an insult. I think that’s very straightforward. But this situation doesn’t completely sit right with me and I understand why other people feel the same way. **Wesley Clark** ’s post wasn’t an insult according to the rules, in my opinion, but it was a personal dig and it was not in any way relevant to his argument. I understand you were making a joke, **Wesley Clark** , but it does not come off as a clear joke and I’m not surprised **Rand Rover** took it the way he did. So if some of the other mods think this is not fair or not the right call, I’ll reverse the warning. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/14 "2010-07-10T21:34:58Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > So raising a particular individual’s taxes to take his money and “spend it on ourselves” isn’t insulting, In what way is that a personal insult? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/15 "2010-07-10T21:38:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Exactly. “We should raise taxes on [any poster]” is not a personal insult. “You are a violent person, and you make it worse by lacking the courage of your convictions” is an insult. I think that’s very straightforward. I disagree. I’d be most insulted if anyone attempted to take my money away from me, or suggested doing so. The thing that nudges it over the boundary is calling out **Rand Rover** by name. Even if you think one is less bad than the other, the fair thing to do is call offsetting penalties, and replay the down. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/16 "2010-07-10T21:41:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In what way is that a personal insult? The naming of a specific poster rather than a generic class. If he’d said let’s raise taxes on the wealthy, fine–I’d still disagree strongly, of course, but there’s no personal insult there. Let’s take **Rand Rover** ’s money is getting personal with a specific poster. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/17 "2010-07-10T21:45:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So if some of the other mods think this is not fair or not the right call, I’ll reverse the warning. My take on it is pretty much the same as yours. **Wesley Clark’s** remark was needling, but it was not a direct personal insult. It deserved an admonition not to do it again, which you did. **Rand Rover’s** response was a direct personal insult ("You are a violent person; You aren’t man enough). It was against the rules, and deserved a warning. **Fear Itself’s** remark may have characterized **Rand’s** views in a way he disagrees with, but it was directed at the views rather than being a direct personal insult and thus doesn’t merit a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/18 "2010-07-10T21:51:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Wesley Clark’s** remark was needling, but it was not a direct personal insult. It deserved an admonition not to do it again, which you did. > > **Rand Rover’s** response was a direct personal insult ("You are a violent person; You aren’t man enough). It was against the rules, and deserved a warning. That’s not fair. You’re saying posters are free to poke **Rand Rover** (or possibly all conservatives and/or libertarians) with sticks, even though they really shouldn’t, but if the conservatives/liberatarians fight back, even mildly, they get hammered. By this logic, someone can start a thread called “Let’s take Oakminster’s guns and melt them down for some dippy-hippy scheme”, and I can’t fight back. If\*\* Rand Rover\*\* hadn’t been called out by name, he wouldn’t have responded the way he did. Either both guys get warnings, or both guys get a “knock it off/no warning issued”. The latter is the better choice. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/19 "2010-07-10T21:58:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s not fair. You’re saying posters are free to poke **Rand Rover** (or possibly all conservatives and/or libertarians) with sticks, even though they really shouldn’t, but if the conservatives/liberatarians fight back, even mildly, they get hammered. **Oakminster** , as always, if you feel you are being “poked” or insulted or any other word of your choosing, the correct thing to do is report the post, not “fight back, even mildly.” This has nothing to do with political orientation, and it’s too bad you are insisting on viewing it that way. I think that’s the last thing I’ll say about this topic until I hear opinions from more of the staff. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229/20 "2010-07-10T21:59:46Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I disagree. I’d be most insulted if anyone attempted to take my money away from me, or suggested doing so. A policy discussion about taxes, where one matter on the table happens to include a situation where you would find your taxes raised, is “most insulting” to you? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-be-offended-by-personal-insults-for-them-to-count/546229.md?page=2)