# Do you have to operate criminally to be a property developer in New York? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2018, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916 "2018-12-30T07:07:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/1 "2018-12-30T07:07:12Z")
I have been told that it is basically impossible to accomplish anything in New York, in terms of buying land, developing land, managing your property, etc. unless you get in bed with the mafia and corrupt politicians. Is this accurate? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/2 "2018-12-30T12:28:32Z")
I’m sorry I don’t know that about New York. However I think it’s important to know about the person who told you this. Do they have any knowledge or expertise in the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/3 "2018-12-30T16:16:31Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Do they have any knowledge or expertise in the subject? Real estate, yes, life in New York, no, running a criminal enterprise, no. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/4 "2018-12-30T16:24:38Z")
Mafia is way down from what they used to be in NYC and elsewhere. Many of them went to prison during the crackdown in the 80s and after that. Don’t think they have nearly as much power in construction as they had. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/5 "2018-12-30T16:30:22Z")
[This article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/) describes how Russian money bailed Trump out when he was a financial pariah. Joel Ross, described in the quote below as ‘a long-established investment banker in Manhattan’, said that ‘Trump is not much different than most of the NY real estate developers,’ but stops short of saying that _criminal_ activity is necessary. > [@](#): > > Some New York real-estate experts, like Joel Ross, a long-established investment banker in Manhattan, say this devil-may-care attitude is typical in the industry, and critics are overreacting in tying Trump’s business ties to his presidential policies. Though Ross says he’s “no fan” of Trump, he added that the key point is that the big 2016 Moscow negotiation went nowhere, and there is no evidence that Trump is currently basing his policies toward Russia on his business dealings. In truth, Trump’s several forays into Russia in search of possible deals is standard in big-time real estate, Ross said. And the majority of negotiations don’t pan out. > > “As to any other deals, what they may earn on a management contract is not enough to get him to change foreign policy,” Ross wrote FP in an email. “This is not as serious an issue as you seem to imagine. You guys in the media have no understanding of how real estate works and how unserious these things are. Trump is not much different than most of the NY real estate developers. Obnoxious, liar, screws people, impossible to trust, etc, but in NY real estate–not unusual.” > > Ross added: “None of any of that is proof of anything other than Trump was considered a bad guy who nobody trusted to do business with in the US banking world. That is far from any proof he did anything wrong as to collusion which there was none.” ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/6 "2018-12-30T19:13:58Z")
Yep. And all the gambling in Las Vegas is linked to organized crime too! _SIGH_ There’s a reason regulatory agencies are created. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/7 "2018-12-30T19:22:55Z")
In case I wasn’t clear in my post above. If the OP is correct, someone opposing Trump or any other other politician with ties to New York real estate or development would be quickly exposed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/8 "2018-12-30T20:17:24Z")
[Moderating] I don’t see any way for this to avoid becoming a debate. Off to GD. ---
**Author:** ![RingsOfPylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@RingsOfPylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RingsOfPylon)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-have-to-operate-criminally-to-be-a-property-developer-in-new-york/826916/9 "2018-12-30T21:07:47Z")
Well, the mafia has been neutered and now the government takes over those tasks. If you need a building permit to make improvements on your home, you have to grease some government palms. Otherwise you’ll never get a permit or the paperwork will either stall or disappear, but they will make you jump through numerous hoops so that they can torture you along the way. Each completed demand still leaves you without a building permit. However, a little monetary “encouragement” goes a long way. In some cases, you just go ahead with your plans without the city’s blessing and apologize later. Just make sure you have an appropriate number of $100 bills in an envelope to go along with your mea culpas when the building officials arrive. I’m relating my sister-in-law’s protracted efforts to build a room on the roof of her Brooklyn home about 10 years ago. She first went about it the way you would expect - above board and legal. Very naive on her part. She got delays and run-arounds. A year or so later she finally wised up. People expect incentives; meet their expectations and things start to happen and they turn a blind eye to your sins. With bigger buildings and high profile real estate dealings, the stakes are high. No need to settle for smaller bribes there, I imagine.