# Do You Hear a Ch or Tr Here? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874 "2011-08-07T22:39:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/1 "2011-08-07T22:39:51Z")
The Cafe Society thread on a Jeopardy homophone question [Eh (T)rebek?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=619343) evolved into a discussion on the real-world pronunciation of _truck_. Some say it is frequently (or almost always) pronounced with a ch sound at the beginning: _chruck._ Others say they would never do such a thing. Someone linked to a online dictionary that provided a audible pronunciation, but now there are divergent opinions on whether the online dictionary is saying the word as truck or chruck. Your opinion please. The Audible Dictionary [Link](http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/truck-American-English-pronunciation.mp3). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/2 "2011-08-07T22:43:00Z")
Baal, you might want to redo this as a snazzy graphic-enabled poll in the “In My Humble Opinion” forum. Meanwhile, as I’m sure you know, put me in the “ch” box! (for how I hear that link, as well as for how I pronounce it myself.) Keep in mind that “ch” is, on some level, really just “t” plus “sh”, so even the “ch-” option could be said to start with a “t” sound (correct me if I’m off on this, linguists!). ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/3 "2011-08-07T22:54:58Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Baal, you might want to redo this as a snazzy graphic-enabled poll in the “In My Humble Opinion” forum. Ah yes, it would be more at home in IMHO. If a mod wishes to move it, that would be appropriate. (The line about “graphic-enabled” means what?) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/4 "2011-08-07T22:58:52Z")
Anyone here have the capability of snipping out the first bit of the sound recording and posting that up somewhere, so we can hear the consonant sound in isolation? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/5 "2011-08-07T23:24:40Z")
To me, that one is clearly “chruck.” The audio sample on [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truck) is one I would say sounds more like “truck” than “chruck,” although the “tr” still has a bit of that “chr” coloring to it. Still, that pronunciation is about as clean as I hear “truck.” Personally, I say “chruck.” ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/6 "2011-08-07T23:46:33Z")
I don’t get an audio sample with the OP’s link. Instead I get a blank page with a yellow bar telling me that it was blocked for my “safety” and when I ask it to download anyway nothing happens. Anyway, I found the link in the other thread and got the file that way. It’s saying “truck,” though the “ck” sound is difficult to make out. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/7 "2011-08-08T00:04:15Z")
It may be a browser audio issue, but I hear “truh” with a HINT of a “k.” ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/8 "2011-08-08T00:06:12Z")
It’s hard to self-judge, but so far as I can manage: Is it ok if I think I go both ways (without conscious choice)? Though probably “chruck” more often… ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/9 "2011-08-08T00:06:37Z")
Would be awesome for someone to clip the “tr” from the clip, and add an unvoiced “p” clip to the end, and see whether or not everyone universally agrees that the result sounds like “chirp” rather than “turp.” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/10 "2011-08-08T00:47:16Z")
Isn’t this poll just begging the question by putting the spellings “truck” and “chruck” right there in the top? It’s like asking: Do you hear “night” or do you hear “nite”? The real issue–and **JKellyMap** pretty much clarified it with the link to [Literl-Minded](http://literalminded.wordpress.com/category/phonetics-and-phonology/consonants/affricates/) website–is about how people perceive orthography. “Truck” and “chruck” are just two different ways to spell the same thing, _by nature of the phonology of this particular consonant cluster_. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/11 "2011-08-08T00:58:38Z")
Well, sure, except the point is, not everyone turns /t/ before /r/ into [ʧr]. So while many speakers’ phonology will be such that “tr” is always rendered as [ʧr], for others, that may not be the case. That’s what the poll is exploring, presumably. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/12 "2011-08-08T00:59:14Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Isn’t this poll just begging the question by putting the spellings “truck” and “chruck” right there in the top? > > It’s like asking: Do you hear “night” or do you hear “nite”? > > The real issue–and **JKellyMap** pretty much clarified it with the link to [Literl-Minded](http://literalminded.wordpress.com/category/phonetics-and-phonology/consonants/affricates/) website–is about how people perceive orthography. “Truck” and “chruck” are just two different ways to spell the same thing, _by nature of the phonology of this particular consonant cluster_. Some people are claiming the word’s first sound (the actual sound made when the word is actually spoken) is the same as that which is most usually spelled “t” in English. Other people are claiming the word’s first sound is the one most usually (or perhaps rather most traditionally) “ch” in English. The people who believe the former would disagree with you that “truck” and “chruck” are “just two different ways to spell the same thing” if by that you mean two equally acceptable ways to spell it–they’d say “chruck” is a bad way to spell it, since “ch” traditionally denotes one sound, but the sound at the beginning of the word is a different sound. ETA: I mean, don’t you think it’s interesting and to the point that right now there’s a nearly even split in the poll over just what the first sound in the clip _is_? I _really think_ that the “it’s a t” people are mistaken, in the sense that if the first bit of the clip were played in isolation, they’d hear “ch”, and if the clip up to “r” were played followed immediately by a clip of a p, they’d all immediately understand the result to say “chirp.” That’s what I “really think”, but it’s interesting that I’m only in a slight majority here. Other’s “really think” the sound is different from the one I say I hear. For this reason, I’d love it if someone could actually post clips like those I just described… I’d do it but I have no mic on this laptop… ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/13 "2011-08-08T01:13:30Z")
IMHO, the most interesting result so far is the 100% correlation between what one _hears_ (in the same sound clip!) and what one hears/feels _himself_ to be saying. My guess is that the audible difference between the sounds, perhaps especially via a recorded clip heard therough a computer speaker, is so small that anyone is likely to project what they feel themself to be doing onto that clip. When dealing with how one perceives a foreign language, this is common. We could probably generate a similar poll using, say, aspirated and unaspirated “p” as pronounced by a Hindi speaker; or, conversely, English “r” and “l” among, say, native Chinese speakers. But to see this sort of thing play out so starkly among native speakers of the language in question is interesting. Surely, this means that the “ch”/“t” distinction _doesn’t matter_ in English in certain situations, for comprehension of spoken utterances. Is “allophones” the right word for this? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/14 "2011-08-08T01:20:01Z")
ETA: In a braoder sense, we do “projecting” like this all the time. When someone talks to us, we fill in “gaps” – casued, say, by some louder noise interrupting the sound as it travels to our ears, or by the person coughing, etc., etc., _automatically_. Our brains can’t help doing this. We fill in based on what we imagine that WE would say. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/15 "2011-08-08T01:31:26Z")
I’ve created your Frankenstein, **Frylock**. If someone tells me a convenient place to upload .MP3 files without having to make an account, I’ll put it there. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/16 "2011-08-08T01:37:21Z")
[Here](http://kiwi6.com/file/vso7q1m3bv) it is. “chirpy” made out of “truck”, “purpose”, and “pee” (all from the same site as in the OP). Or is it “trippy”?.. But speech is an odd thing, when you play around with it like this. Play [this clip](http://kiwi6.com/file/94os2lvw17) and guess what she was saying. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/17 "2011-08-08T01:49:13Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > [Here](http://kiwi6.com/file/vso7q1m3bv) it is. “chirpy” made out of “truck”, “purpose”, and “pee” (all from the same site as in the OP). Or is it “trippy”?.. That is fantastic! Trippy, indeed! (And “chirpy”). > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > But speech is an odd thing, when you play around with it like this. Play [this clip](http://kiwi6.com/file/94os2lvw17) and guess what she was saying. Here’s to my sweet Satan? I buried Paul? 😉 Actually, I hear “pray”. Do tell us more, **Indistinguishable**! ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/18 "2011-08-08T01:51:17Z")
No, no, play it forwards, not backwards! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/19 "2011-08-08T01:53:22Z")
I can force myself to pronounce “truck” starting with a T sound, but it’s certainly not how I would usually say it. And for what it’s worth, I would transcribe the word **Indistinguishable** cobbled together as “trubby”. And the second link is either “pray” or “prey”-- I always imagine a difference between those two, but I can’t actually hear it.(spoilers so I don’t corrupt others’ answers) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874/20 "2011-08-08T02:33:44Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > But speech is an odd thing, when you play around with it like this. Play [this clip](http://kiwi6.com/file/94os2lvw17) and guess what she was saying. I hear something like “pré.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-hear-a-ch-or-tr-here/591874.md?page=2)