# Do you honestly believe we've brought freedom to Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719 "2005-12-08T17:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/1 "2005-12-08T17:38:50Z")
I am wondering how many people here actually believe that we’ve brought freedom to Iraq in any way shape or form. I just read an article about Shi’ite Death Squads that work with the police in Iraq. It seems like the greatest justification for being in Iraq is that we are afraid of looking weak by pulling out. This doesn’t sway me. It seems wholly immature as though we aren’t backing down from the kid who stole our lunch money. In case you haven’t noticed, we are the kid stealing the lunch money. If we don’t back down, we just look cruel. We need to just unilaterally pull out, we aren’t helping. [http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle\_East/GL09Ak03.html](http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GL09Ak03.html) Erek ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/2 "2005-12-08T17:43:51Z")
Of course we’ve brought freedom to Iraq. The problem is that many people do not understand the two types of freedom: freedom (from) and freedom (to). Iraq right now has a surplus of freedom (to) - basically many parts are in a state of anarchy, with no enforecement of laws by the central government. People are free _to_ do almost anything, like murder, cause mayhem, etc. There is very little freedom (from). Freedom from fear of persecution, etc. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/3 "2005-12-08T17:44:40Z")
I honestly believe we deposed Saddam and killed his sons. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/4 "2005-12-08T18:43:41Z")
Freedom isn’t like pie. You can’t just bring it. As far as the looking weak to our enemies, well, there is nothing we can do to give a good impression to our enemies. It’s what our friends in the Middle East will think of us if we pull out quickly, that we need to think about. I also agree with **CynicalGabe**. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/5 "2005-12-08T18:49:41Z")
I honestly believe that, for some things at least, it’s far too early to make a certain and lasting assessment. The bigger or more profound the goal, the longer it’ll likely take to reach it. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/6 "2005-12-08T18:54:50Z")
I’m thirding \*\*CynicalGabe \*\* and requesting the when **Zebra** returns he brings the pie he has brought up. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/7 "2005-12-08T18:55:58Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I honestly believe we deposed Saddam and killed his sons. And I prefer milk chocolate to white chocolate. Oh look, neither of us has answered **mswas** ’s question. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/8 "2005-12-08T19:02:42Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Freedom isn’t like pie. You can’t just bring it. Freedom is like pie; you must accept it, & make it a part of yourself. In the pie analogy–eat it. With freedom–internalize it as part of your culture. The Iraqis are not eating it. They are sticking it in their ear, or trying to stick it our ear. They do not grasp the concept of pie. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/9 "2005-12-08T19:04:58Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I honestly believe we deposed Saddam and killed his sons. Na und? Did deposing Saddam and leaving a massive power vacuum somehow grant Freedom [TM] to Iraq? I think we only traded one bunch of oppressive sons of bitches for another. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/10 "2005-12-08T19:21:48Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > Na und? > > Did deposing Saddam and leaving a massive power vacuum somehow grant Freedom [TM] to Iraq? > > I think we only traded one bunch of oppressive sons of bitches for another. At least they’re _our_ sons of bitches! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/11 "2005-12-08T19:25:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > At least they’re _our_ sons of bitches! Sure, but in 20 years someone ELSE will be our son of a bitch and we’ll have to depose him/them. Sigh. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/12 "2005-12-08T19:35:36Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And I prefer milk chocolate to white chocolate. > > Oh look, neither of us has answered **mswas** ’s question. > > -Joe No, I don’t believe we brought freedom to Iraq. I don’t believe you can bring freedom anywhere. But you can try to create the conditions for Freedom springing up and taking root. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/13 "2005-12-08T20:07:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > No, I don’t believe we brought freedom to Iraq. I don’t believe you can bring freedom anywhere. But you can try to create the conditions for Freedom springing up and taking root. The point of your post was what, then? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/14 "2005-12-08T20:11:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > At least they’re _our_ sons of bitches! well, _yours_, anyway. Or, to answer the OP, no. not in any shape or form. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/15 "2005-12-08T20:37:16Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > I honestly believe that, for some things at least, it’s far too early to make a certain and lasting assessment. The bigger or more profound the goal, the longer it’ll likely take to reach it. Sure and a thousand years later when we have eliminated the last Iraq through either bombing, fucking or organized sterilization, Iraq will truly be free, but of course we shouldn’t judge the methods being used before it plays out. No, I agree we should wait until its a complete clusterfuck and no country in the world can stay out of it. Erek ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/16 "2005-12-08T20:57:42Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > The point of your post was what, then? > > -Joe I only believe in what I know for a fact. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/17 "2005-12-08T21:02:38Z")
I don’t think we’ve brought shit. Strange game, the best move is not to play! Marginally relevent [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iraq.main/index.html) > [@](#): > > U.S. considers pulling 30,000 troops from Iraq ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/18 "2005-12-08T21:17:06Z")
How many major conflicts are there that you could ask at this point “Has freedom been established”? I don’t think it’s a bad question, but I do have reservations about when it can rationally be expected. It was a major conflict, initiated just in March of 2003. You’d expect a progression through a series of benchmarks to have to occur, like removal of the heavily armed dictatorship, establishment of a functioning government, rebuilding of infrastructure, confidence in it’s security forces, etc before some more esoteric question like “Have we brought freedom” can be answered. Either that or you can ask it now but should in all fairness continue to ask it each year because, someday, the answer’s gonna change. No, right now I don’t think we’ve brought freedom to Iraq. Hopefully, someday, given a resolution to the insurgency, we’ll see it to be a decidedly better place. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/19 "2005-12-08T21:33:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I only believe in what I know for a fact. So you were just posting for the sake of making noise, then. Got it. I’d like to point out at this juncture that the sun rises in the east. Remember kids if anyone answers you a question about anything just state a random fact. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/20 "2005-12-09T00:05:22Z")
Freedom is relative. No country has perfect freedom, so the relevant question is: Is Iraq, as a whole, more free than it was during Saddam’s rule. I think the answer is “yes”, especially since only a minority of Iraqis would prefer to return to the days of Saddam. But, let’s not miss an opportunity to make the US look bad, right **mswas**? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719.md?page=2)