# Do you honestly believe we've brought freedom to Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719 "2005-12-08T17:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/21 "2005-12-09T00:40:42Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I’d like to point out at this juncture that the sun rises in the east. The most uneducated statement ever. The Sun doesn’t rise or set. The Earth rotates about its own axis as it travels its orbit around the Sun. As the Earth rotates it exposes its different regions to the Sun in revolving succession. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/22 "2005-12-09T01:24:16Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > The most uneducated statement ever. > > The Sun doesn’t rise or set. The Earth rotates about its own axis as it travels its orbit around the Sun. As the Earth rotates it exposes its different regions to the Sun in revolving succession. Nope noise, zero content. What a shock. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/23 "2005-12-09T02:03:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > the relevant question is: Is Iraq, as a whole, more free than it was during Saddam’s rule. I think the answer is “yes”, especially since only a minority of Iraqis would prefer to return to the days of Saddam. So you think Ayad Allawi (no friend of Saddam’s) is blowing smoke when he says that, in terms of things like roaming death squads and torture, things are just as bad as during Saddam’s rule, and appear to be getting worse? Or are you talking about a less tangible sort of freedom? ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/24 "2005-12-09T02:13:33Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > So you think Ayad Allawi (no friend of Saddam’s) is blowing smoke when he says that, in terms of things like roaming death squads and torture, things are just as bad as during Saddam’s rule, and appear to be getting worse? > > Or are you talking about a less tangible sort of freedom? I seem to recall hearing something about an insurgency, and people getting decapitated… ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/25 "2005-12-09T02:37:04Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > I seem to recall hearing something about an insurgency, and people getting decapitated… [Indeed. And suicide bombers.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/12/08/us_hostage_said_killed_on_bloody_day_in_iraq/) How many suicide bombers were there in Iraq before the invasion? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/26 "2005-12-09T03:03:37Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > [Indeed. And suicide bombers.](http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/12/08/us_hostage_said_killed_on_bloody_day_in_iraq/) How many suicide bombers were there in Iraq before the invasion? That’s a sign of freedom. As you note, suicide bombers are rare in police states. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/27 "2005-12-09T03:40:07Z")
Well, we brought _something_ to Iraq… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/28 "2005-12-09T03:43:32Z")
Do I honestly believe we’ve brought freedom to Iraq? Certainly. I’m unsure how this could even be disputed to be honest. But having freedom doesn’t mean everything is going to be peaches and cream from here on out. It also doesn’t mean that freedom will last. Perhaps the Iraqi’s would prefer less freedom and more security in the future and will trade up for Saddam lite. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/29 "2005-12-09T18:32:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Freedom is relative. No country has perfect freedom, so the relevant question is: Is Iraq, as a whole, more free than it was during Saddam’s rule. I think the answer is “yes”, especially since only a minority of Iraqis would prefer to return to the days of Saddam. > > But, let’s not miss an opportunity to make the US look bad, right **mswas**? I don’t think that pointing out that an useless executive making a shameless landgrab in Asia, and roundly failing, in any way is about making American look bad. America will stop looking bad when we are no longer in Iraq. Having troops there makes America look bad, pretending it isn’t happening is stupid. So actually “lets not miss an opportunity to make America look good.”, the reality is the reality, its not a matter of public relations. If we spent more time thinking about how the reality IS, rather than how the reality LOOKS, we’d be in much better shape. This ain’t Hollywood buddy, and I ain’t a movie critic. This administration looks bad because it sucks at its job, not because I point it out on a message board. Erek ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/30 "2005-12-09T18:58:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think that pointing out that an useless executive making a shameless landgrab in Asia, and roundly failing, in any way is about making American look bad. America will stop looking bad when we are no longer in Iraq. Having troops there makes America look bad, pretending it isn’t happening is stupid. > > So actually “lets not miss an opportunity to make America look good.”, the reality is the reality, its not a matter of public relations. If we spent more time thinking about how the reality IS, rather than how the reality LOOKS, we’d be in much better shape. This ain’t Hollywood buddy, and I ain’t a movie critic. This administration looks bad because it sucks at its job, not because I point it out on a message board. Exactly. This admistration looks bad because it has made bad descisions and performed poorly. So, why do you have to **make things up** in order to make them look even worse? It doesn’t work. It just makes you look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/31 "2005-12-09T19:09:07Z")
I fully agree that this administration has sucked in it’s handling of Iraq. Not only that but it’s actions in Iraq have caused the reallocation of resources needed in Afghanistan and their redeployment threatens to allow the undoing of all the good we’d accomplished there. But can you explain your claim this is a “landgrab” and that the US trying to eliminate every “last Iraqi” through “organized sterilization”, etc? That strikes me as, oh… extremely paranoid and inaccurate? > [@](#): > > No, I agree we should wait until its a complete clusterfuck and no country in the world can stay out of it. I’d address this if I could but, unfortunately, I don’t have any idea what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/32 "2005-12-09T19:13:14Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > But can you explain your claim this is a “landgrab” and that the US trying to eliminate every “last Iraqi” through “organized sterilization”, etc? That strikes me as, oh… extremely paranoid and inaccurate? Ah… **lieu**? I _believe_ he was using hyperbole. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/33 "2005-12-09T19:38:08Z")
I realize that. It goes hand in hand with the mischaracterization of intent and justification. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/34 "2005-12-09T20:08:25Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Exactly. This admistration looks bad because it has made bad descisions and performed poorly. So, why do you have to **make things up** in order to make them look even worse? It doesn’t work. It just makes you look stupid. Do you have a cite to prove that I “Made things up”? Or are you making that up? Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/35 "2005-12-09T20:10:28Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > I fully agree that this administration has sucked in it’s handling of Iraq. Not only that but it’s actions in Iraq have caused the reallocation of resources needed in Afghanistan and their redeployment threatens to allow the undoing of all the good we’d accomplished there. > > But can you explain your claim this is a “landgrab” and that the US trying to eliminate every “last Iraqi” through “organized sterilization”, etc? That strikes me as, oh… extremely paranoid and inaccurate? Paranoid and inaccurate or… sarcasm? The part about sterilization was in response to the person who said it’s too early to tell whether or not its successful we should withhold judgement until it plays out. I was just expressing my dismissal of that as a good idea. As for the shameless land grab part. Did we or did we not, build bases in order to protect oil pipelines? Erek ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/36 "2005-12-09T20:20:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Do I honestly believe we’ve brought freedom to Iraq? Certainly. I’m unsure how this could even be disputed to be honest. But having freedom doesn’t mean everything is going to be peaches and cream from here on out. It also doesn’t mean that freedom will last. Perhaps the Iraqi’s would prefer less freedom and more security in the future and will trade up for Saddam lite. That’s what I’m wondering. If the US has cleared the way for elections and the people elect someone the US doesn’t like, what then? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/37 "2005-12-09T20:27:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Do you have a cite to prove that I “Made things up”? You’ve got to be kidding… > [@](#): > > …making a shameless landgrab in Asia… I think \*\*lieu \*\*covered the rest of the crap you’ve posted here. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/38 "2005-12-09T22:32:57Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I think \*\*lieu \*\*covered the rest of the crap you’ve posted here. Well, if by ‘here’ you mean this thread and not the SDMB…sure. I’d hate for **lieu** to hurt himself. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/39 "2005-12-09T22:55:57Z")
I believe we’ve brought freedom to Iraq. Of course, I also believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and that FOX News is “fair and unbiased.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719/40 "2005-12-09T23:18:27Z")
> [@TV time](#): > > Of course, I also believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and that FOX News is “fair and unbiased.” Fair and balanced. So, is it your position that Iraqis had \*\*more \*\*freedom before the US invasion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-honestly-believe-weve-brought-freedom-to-iraq/334719.md?page=3)