# Do you like today's jazz? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992 "2006-05-16T15:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/21 "2006-05-17T18:01:04Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > So it’s cool to you that jazz education pretty much begins with bebop I haven’t had time to reply to your remark properly. Where should jazz education begin? I don’t know the answer to that question. But do you? Any person who is interested in this particular art will find their way backwards and forwards in time from Pee Wee to Zorn to Dave Douglas and beyond and before. > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > and is very behind on promotion and professional development? I’m not sure what you mean by this, but isn’t this attitude pretty common in the development of …? > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > That not enough jazz is being brought into schools, Some great players are trying to bring music to the public schools, of course at times to pay the bills, but in comparison, in some places on this planet having a trumpet gig bag on your shoulder (bleow the age of 17) is more than odd. I guess creating positive awareness…blah, blah, “_%_$#^@” > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > public spaces, etc.?, What public space has ever provided an income for a musician? > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > That coops, collectives, and such that work in musicians’ best interests are rare? when has this statement not been true? ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/22 "2006-05-17T18:14:46Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > A lot of people cringe at the idea of modern jazz, because so much of it is the over produced Kenny G/easy listening type (although I’ve heard some really good soft jazz jams while on hold on the phone before). In the modern era I think that Medeski, Martin, and Wood have some incredibly sublime moments on record and on live tapes, apart from the atonal noise drones that they can also favor. I don’t think that they fit in any other category besides modern jazz. cheers to that. (although I may be more partial to the drones…) modern jazz it ain’t, but: 🆒 I love to hear what people dig about music. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/23 "2006-05-17T18:56:50Z")
> [@seoulsoul](#): > > modern jazz it ain’t. How so? It’s both; A. Modern, and B. Jazz (the releases can be found in the Jazz section at Tower). ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/24 "2006-05-20T19:54:55Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > How so? It’s both; > A. Modern, and > B. Jazz (the releases can be found in the Jazz section at Tower). I don’t think the jazz section of Tower records can be sited as an authority on music. I think MMW are great, but personally don’t think they fit into a label of modern jazz. While I know such labels are irrelevant, jazz of today needs to push the bounds of form and harmony, incorporating the accomplishments of 20th century classical composers. Some examples are Dave Leibman and Steve Coleman. Maybe they are post-modern jazz players? They both have mastered the basic vocabulary, and move it to a new place. I cannot say that Medeski Martin and Wood have done that, hence the statement “modern jazz it ain’t”. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/25 "2006-05-20T20:31:04Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I love Wynton Marsalis. Marsalis primarily plays standards or dixie. The stuff he has written has been (IMO) tedious. Many don’t like his playing, or that of his brothers, but he has certainly done a lot to re-popularize the genre and does much in the area of encouraging young people to take up music. I prefer his classical playing, particularly baroque pieces, and am a fan of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. His father, Ellis, is still playing piano gigs (he was at Jazz Fest this year) and sounds pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/26 "2006-05-20T20:55:02Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Marsalis primarily plays standards or dixie. The stuff he has written has been (IMO) tedious. Many don’t like his playing, or that of his brothers, but he has certainly done a lot to re-popularize the genre and does much in the area of encouraging young people to take up music. I prefer his classical playing, particularly baroque pieces, and am a fan of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. His father, Ellis, is still playing piano gigs (he was at Jazz Fest this year) and sounds pretty good. I tend to be more more of a Brandford (Marsalis) fan. He pushes the envelope a bit more then his brother (IMOHO), while Wynton polarizes the jazz scene like Bush in his 3rd term. But I suppose a music to politics metaphor is hardly helpful, and anything that awakens awareness can be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/27 "2006-05-21T01:52:56Z")
> [@seoulsoul](#): > > I tend to be more more of a Brandford (Marsalis) fan. He pushes the envelope a bit more then his brother (IMOHO), while Wynton polarizes the jazz scene like Bush in his 3rd term. But I suppose a music to politics metaphor is hardly helpful, and anything that awakens awareness can be useful. Probably; it’s just that I can only take soprano sax in limited doses. I guess the jury is still out on the drummer brother…Defayo? Defeo? Something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/28 "2006-05-21T01:57:43Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Probably; it’s just that I can only take soprano sax in limited doses. I guess the jury is still out on the drummer brother…Defayo? Defeo? Something like that. Well, Branford plays the tenor sax _almost_ as abysmally as he plays soprano. Isn’t Daeifaeyoih the _trombone_ playing brother? There’s a drummer, too? And what was up with this shit of Ellis Marsalis’s childraising anyhow…whydin’t he just have NINE kids and field a fuckin’ baseball team? ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/29 "2006-05-21T03:26:33Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > Isn’t Daeifaeyoih the _trombone_ playing brother? There’s a drummer, too?? Yeah you’re right, Delfeayo is the trombone player, and Jason is the drummer. ---
**Author:** ![PerditaX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@PerditaX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PerditaX)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/30 "2006-05-21T03:52:24Z")
Are Bela Fleck & the Flecktones considered jazz? They’re amazing! Best live shows I’ve ever been to (and I’ve been to five live concerts…so far!)! ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/31 "2006-05-21T04:24:01Z")
> [@PerditaX](#): > > Are Bela Fleck & the Flecktones considered jazz? They’re amazing! Best live shows I’ve ever been to (and I’ve been to five live concerts…so far!)! Yeah, I think they are great too. But I also think they would say their music is a mix of jazz, funk, and blue grass. Bela Fleck is an amazing virtuoso and ground breaker on the banjo, and first came to prominence on the blue grass scene. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/32 "2006-05-21T14:55:18Z")
> [@seoulsoul](#): > > Yeah you’re right, Delfeayo is the trombone player, and Jason is the drummer. Sheesh, I lost track of them all. And I just saw Jason playing with his father two weeks ago, too! ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/33 "2006-05-21T15:28:11Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Sheesh, I lost track of them all. And I just saw Jason playing with his father two weeks ago, too! On my first visit to New Orleans in 1998, I caught Jason’s combo playing at a tiny club on Rampart Street, the Funky Butt. The combo was amazing, the club served great red beans and rice, and Dave Pirner, the singer of rock band Soul Asylum, was also in the audience. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/34 "2006-05-21T15:28:50Z")
I don’t like many of the modern practitioners of “traditional” jazz, like many of the artists mentioned above. But there have been a lot of artists that have taken aspects of jazz and evolved it along, as jazz, being jazz, should always keep doing. In other words, seems to me that the “purest” modern jazz shouldn’t sound a whole lot like the jazz of 30 or 40 years ago. I really like the fusion of jazz and hiphop that kind of evolved out of “triphop” (a neologism I still don’t like). Pick a label: drum and bass, acid rap, downtempo. There is a LOT of jazz in that stuff. GURU, Nobukazu Takemura, DJ Krush–they’re solid jazz artists, using the tools and sounds of their contemporary world, not their fathers’. The first time I heard Portishead’s _Portishead_, I was like, this is what Betty Carter would be doing if she were young today. Plus, anything Amy Denio does, OK? ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/35 "2006-05-22T14:37:07Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Plus, anything Amy Denio does, OK? I tried to find more info about Amy Denio, but the few links I found were quite old (1991 birthing blues etc.). I’d love to hear what she’s doing these days. Where can I find her music? Also, if you happen to be a fan of the Seattle jazz scene (I know very little about it) I think the Seattle based guitarist John Stowell is amazing. His playing is very modern, creative, and relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/36 "2006-05-22T19:04:32Z")
> [@seoulsoul](#): > > I haven’t had time to reply to your remark properly. Nor I to yours…please excuse not quoting myself in your quotes here (the Dope un-does this automagically…what price clarity). > [@](#): > > Where should jazz education begin? I don’t know the answer to that question. But do you? Any person who is interested in this particular art will find their way backwards and forwards in time from Pee Wee to Zorn to Dave Douglas and beyond and before. I’m particularly puzzled by the fact that premodern jazz, as music history/musicology but especially as a set of performance styles, is not widely taught in music schools – and that there is no real rationale for leaving it out; it’s simply ignored, and that fact alone gives it second-class status among the various musics we call jazz. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by this, but isn’t this attitude pretty common in the development of …? Whatever. Doesn’t make it right. Again, professional development is something most educators prefer to ignore. > [@](#): > > Some great players are trying to bring music to the public schools, of course at times to pay the bills […] What public space has ever provided an income for a musician? Mind if I poke at an unstated assumption of yours? –\> _Jazz should support itself financially._ Can we just assume, for the sake of argument, that jazz ought _not_ be expected to pay its own way? We don’t expect this of classical music (even in arts-funding starved America) – that’s viewed as bringing beauty and art to the community. It draws private donors, societies, and yes even government grants sometimes. Why advocate a lesser status for jazz? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/37 "2006-05-22T19:08:44Z")
> [@seoulsoul](#): > > I tried to find more info about Amy Denio, but the few links I found were quite old (1991 birthing blues etc.). I’d love to hear what she’s doing these days. Where can I find her music? [Spoot Music](http://home.earthlink.net/~amydenio/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/38 "2006-05-22T19:24:57Z")
She’s also a founding member of the Billy Tipton Memorial Saxophone Quintet, or the Tiptons as they’ve come to be called. ---
**Author:** ![seoulsoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seoulsoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seoulsoul)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992/39 "2006-05-23T14:36:10Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > I’m particularly puzzled by the fact that premodern jazz, as music history/musicology but especially as a set of performance styles, is not widely taught in music schools – and that there is no real rationale for leaving it out; it’s simply ignored, and that fact alone gives it second-class status among the various musics we call jazz. I don’t know exactly what is being taught in music schools today. But, if these parts of what I would assume to be standard jazz history and performance practice are being left out, of course I’m on your side. While I agree most jazz education begins (and sometimes ends) at bebop, to it’s detriment, my point was that at _least_ this is being taught. Any serious history/musicology/performance student would independently study this subject. I realize this is also an assumption. > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Whatever. Doesn’t make it right. Again, professional development is something most educators prefer to ignore. I’d love to hear about your professional development ideas. What is it that most educators prefer to ignore? I really mean this, I’d like some ideas. > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Mind if I poke at an unstated assumption of yours? –\> _Jazz should support itself financially._ Can we just assume, for the sake of argument, that jazz ought _not_ be expected to pay its own way? We don’t expect this of classical music (even in arts-funding starved America) – that’s viewed as bringing beauty and art to the community. It draws private donors, societies, and yes even government grants sometimes. Why advocate a lesser status for jazz? Don’t mind at all. I didn’t mean to imply that _jazz_ should support itself financially, but that an individual player must. I also never said jazz should be relegated to a lesser status than classical music. Both suffer from similar problems. M. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-like-todays-jazz/356992.md?page=1)