# Do you love your city? Sell it to me. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 31, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212 "2012-08-31T01:33:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/41 "2012-09-11T05:18:57Z")
Move to Kensington, Maryland where your name is inscribed on a bridge: > **[Surrender Dorothy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_Dorothy)** > > "Surrender Dorothy" is a famous special effect used in the 1939 film The Wizard of Oz, where the Wicked Witch of the West flies on her broomstick to write the two-word phrase across the sky. The phrase later attained local fame as graffiti in the Washington, DC, metropolitan area. > The first appearance of the phrase is in the 1939 version of The Wizard of Oz (it is not in the novel or any previous adaptations). In the scene, Dorothy Gale (Judy Garland) has reached the Emerald City with her comp... ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/42 "2012-09-11T13:57:57Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > From what I’ve seen in housing prices, you’re not going to beat St. Louis. Especially not Portland or Asheville. Indianapolis maaaybe, although it is much colder (and therefore you’d be combating either your own cheapness of gas bills or a landlord’s nailing it to the minimum allowed by law). The average temperature difference between Indianapolis and St. Louis is about 5 degrees, according to [weather.com](http://weather.com), so I don’t know about “much colder”. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/43 "2012-09-11T15:24:57Z")
Don’t rule out NYC. Manhattan is insanely expensive but the outer boroughs aren’t. You could get a room in Queens or Brooklyn for a reasonable price. And you can’t beat the wonderful public transportation. The buses and subways are cheap, run 24 hours a day and they go pretty much everywhere including the airports and one of the world’s best zoos. You could even think about a Staten Island sojourn. The Italian food is great, the view fantastic and the ferry is FREE! ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/44 "2012-09-11T15:59:19Z")
Another vote here for Charleston, SC; mild winters, low cost of living, plenty of jobs and a variety thereof. Tourism being one if its main industries there are plenty of food service jobs and it’s got big city feel on a small town footprint. It’s cosmopolitan, w/ plenty of people from all over the world living permanently there; one hotel we stayed at, the manager came there on vacation from Canada and went home only long enough to arrange emigration. There’s a well-regarded LGBT population, it’s low on the Jesusy quotient for a Southern city that’s full of historical churches and the ‘farmer’s market’ is simply a year-round market downtown that’s closed about 7 hours in a day from what I can tell. There are stands of fresh produce and seafood along most major roadways all over the county. If you wanted to, you could live all year on a boat in Charleston. You have to want to be bored living in Charleston, even if you’re broke. It has decent transit as well. And dolphins. Chicago, Austin, Philly and Indy can’t offer you free-living dolphins, just swimming around their rivers, doing dolphiny things. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/45 "2012-09-11T22:51:37Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You could get a room in Queens or Brooklyn for a reasonable price. I would love to know what is considered reasonable and what is included in that price. ---
**Author:** ![listedmia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@listedmia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/listedmia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/46 "2012-09-11T23:40:29Z")
Another vote for New Orleans. I’m a cook here and got a job fairly easily. There should be a ton of restaurants hiring when the tourist season starts heating up in fall. Housing is also super super cheap. You can get a 2 bedroom shotgun house or “double”(like a duplex) for under $700 a month in a not-horrible neighborhood, and split it up with a roommate if you want it even cheaper. Then you can have dogs and have a little yard for them. Much better than a studio apartment. Yeah, there’s always the risk of a hurricane, but in general, the weather is really warm and enjoyable all year round. People who grew up here are pretty nice and friendly and there’s enough fresh blood from transplants to not get too insular. Our nightlife is pretty awesome. There is about a bazillion places to see live music and they aren’t all Bourbon Street tourist traps. As a restaurant worker, I appreciate the fact that I can get off work after midnight and the bar will still be open and poppin’. Most people are fairly tolerant of GLBT people, at least more so than anywhere else in the South that I’ve been. New Orleans has a strong Catholic heritage, so people don’t try to proselytize you as much as places with more Evangelical Christians. The vegetarian thing might be a problem, because almost every delicious thing in restaurants has some kind of shellfish or pork product. If you eat seafood you will be fine though. ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/47 "2012-09-13T01:57:17Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > I would love to know what is considered reasonable and what is included in that price. I’m not sure about the rest of the city but you can rent a room for $100-$125 a week in Manhattan. You can find a roommate and split the rent in a 2 bedroom apartment for $650-$700 per person/per month or find 2 roommates and a 3 bedroom for $500-$550 a month per person. Each apartment will have wildly different things, some have a washer/dryer and a dishwasher and some don’t, some are right next to a subway stop and some aren’t, etc. I would assume that the prices are a bit lower in the rest of the city. The public transportation is cheap so you can deal with the higher rents by not having car payments, car insurance, buying gas, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/48 "2012-09-13T02:26:10Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > I’m not sure about the rest of the city but you can rent a room for $100-$125 a week in Manhattan. You can find a roommate and split the rent in a 2 bedroom apartment for $650-$700 per person/per month or find 2 roommates and a 3 bedroom for $500-$550 a month per person. Each apartment will have wildly different things, some have a washer/dryer and a dishwasher and some don’t, some are right next to a subway stop and some aren’t, etc. I would assume that the prices are a bit lower in the rest of the city. The public transportation is cheap so you can deal with the higher rents by not having car payments, car insurance, buying gas, etc. Thanks… my question really was serious. More reasonable than I imagined. Still expensive by Midwest standards, but not as bad as I thought they would be. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/49 "2012-09-13T03:59:21Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > …find 2 roommates and a 3 bedroom for $500-$550 a month per person… Just to take this scenario as an example. I worked in real estate in Manhattan for one year in 2004, exclusively in rentals. I saw plenty of three bedroom apartments for around $1500 then, and they were all tiny, rundown dumps. ALL of the them. I wouldn’t want to think what kind of three bedroom apartment $1500 would get today in Manhattan. Hey, for all I know you can now get a palace for that amount, but I strongly advise anyone who thinks they can live in a decent apartment for that price do some serious research before you get your hopes up. No offense, **pbbth** , but that’s just my experience. Let me add that if you go all the way up to Inwood, which is still of course technically Manhattan, you might find something up there. I had no experience that far north… ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/50 "2012-09-13T04:37:40Z")
So, maybe what I was thinking of as a $1500/mo 3br isn’t quite what pbbth was talking about. Here is what you can get in the Midwest for a little less than that. > **[River Crossing - 8720 Knickerbocker Way Indianapolis, IN - Apartments for...](https://www.apartments.com/river-crossing-indianapolis-in/n4zqlyq/)** > > See all available apartments for rent at River Crossing in Indianapolis, IN. River Crossing has rental units ranging from 536-1433 sq ft starting at $1159. And at least if you have to have a car here you get a garage included at that price. ---
**Author:** ![listedmia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@listedmia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/listedmia)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/51 "2012-09-13T06:10:09Z")
I find it hard to believe that one can get a room for 100-125 a week in Manhatten. It was almost impossible to find that in Chicago, the best I could get was 150 a week in a ghetto neighborhood or Uptown. And those rooms would be infested with mice and have no hot water. And I know SROs are disappearing all over the place. Good luck with that! ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/52 "2012-09-13T13:14:09Z")
> [@listedmia](#): > > I find it hard to believe that one can get a room for 100-125 a week in Manhatten. It was almost impossible to find that in Chicago, the best I could get was 150 a week in a ghetto neighborhood or Uptown. And those rooms would be infested with mice and have no hot water. And I know SROs are disappearing all over the place. Good luck with that! I agree. In 1994 I moved to a weekly room with a shared bathroom in Queens, with a shared bathroom and no kitchen facilities. It was $75 a week if I remember correctly, and that was 18 years ago. In other words people, don’t get your hopes up living decently in Manhattan on the cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/53 "2012-09-13T13:24:17Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > So, maybe what I was thinking of as a $1500/mo 3br isn’t quite what pbbth was talking about. > > Here is what you can get in the Midwest for a little less than that. > > [http://www.apartments.com/Indiana/Indianapolis/River-Crossing/13382?SearchCriteria=p/IWZdgTMtcxCBpNNDiZgcA6NhMz9-|y0v-|74gZ6KKMjJsNO7YrH5n9wsIvfRogiTq6zan-|ImoXxzNNJzuEKhlHqEElE88qfNy84lVR08zk7QXKojhxmCX8ZHrglh/ORgMBnPrK2LSYLMGr/fRwrr3pKZcSP66TEQLgITUPBFft0NlRbUx1A6zB8aMLAuGZ4d&sid=d6d04680-1278-40dd-b10c-2fd3c381fd84&stype=refine](http://www.apartments.com/Indiana/Indianapolis/River-Crossing/13382?SearchCriteria=p/IWZdgTMtcxCBpNNDiZgcA6NhMz9-%7Cy0v-%7C74gZ6KKMjJsNO7YrH5n9wsIvfRogiTq6zan-%7CImoXxzNNJzuEKhlHqEElE88qfNy84lVR08zk7QXKojhxmCX8ZHrglh/ORgMBnPrK2LSYLMGr/fRwrr3pKZcSP66TEQLgITUPBFft0NlRbUx1A6zB8aMLAuGZ4d&sid=d6d04680-1278-40dd-b10c-2fd3c381fd84&stype=refine) > > And at least if you have to have a car here you get a garage included at that price. Ugh. All I have to say about that place is…ugh. The Fashion Mall is the most traffic-infested area of town, and for that price (the 3 br), I could get a mortgage on a house twice the size of my current home (1800 sq ft). ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/54 "2012-09-13T14:30:52Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Ugh. All I have to say about that place is…ugh. The Fashion Mall is the most traffic-infested area of town, and for that price (the 3 br), I could get a mortgage on a house twice the size of my current home (1800 sq ft). Oh, I agree… my mortgage on a 4br house is about half that. It was just the first one that popped up on a quick search for 3br appartment under $1500/mo. Just using it as a point of reference on what that price point gets here. And even though you and I know what a headache it would be to live there, there are tons of people scrambling to get there because it is “fashionable.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/55 "2012-09-13T14:53:16Z")
I worked for [Citi Habitats](http://citihabitats.com/byRental.php) during that year in 2004. They are one of the biggest agencies in NYC and cover all of Manhattan, with a fair amount of listings in the outer boroughs. That link is to their rental listings, if anyone is interested in what $1500 will get you these days. Currently they have exactly one 3 bedroom apartment at $1800 per month in Manhattan, and none cheaper, so, yeah, good luck with that. 🙂 I will say for the record that it actually looks livable though. ETA: I should add that the listings at the site are just the ones agents decide to post. There are surely others, but agents don’t generally put up links to the dumps, but oh the stories I could tell you about them. You don’t want to know. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/56 "2012-09-13T16:27:39Z")
> [@SurrenderDorothy](#): > > And my job… well, it’s food service. It’s a crappy, low-paying job. But I’ve got a fair bit of experience there and know that the turnover rates in kitchens are pretty damn high, so I reckon it shouldn’t be too hard to find a job somewhere else doing the same thing. > > I want to live somewhere affordable, so most huge cities are out. I can’t afford to go running off to San Francisco or Boston. However, I prefer something resembling a city or at least access to something resembling a city. I live in St. Louis now, for reference. Aside from that… I just want a place that isn’t miserable, you know? Not too backwoods or stepford. Ideally, friendly (or at least not actively unfriendly) to gays, atheists, and vegetarians. I prefer a warmer climate, but can deal with a cold one. You mentioned Austin, but San Antonio, TX also fits your bill - plus, Austin is only 60 minutes away and you won’t have to fight that horrible I-35 bottleneck in downtown Austin every freakin’ day. (Seriously, for a city of “only” 800k-odd people, Austin has some tremendously shitty traffic). Get out of St. Louis. Your jobs outlook is quite horrible - 14% of employers look to hire more people, but 12% of employers are expecting to lay off people. [Worst Cities to Find a Job - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-cities-to-find-a-job-2012-9?op=1) Compare that to San Antonio (22% hire, 8% reduce) or Austin (21% hire, 6% reduce) > **[The 14 Best Cities For Finding A Job](https://www.businessinsider.com/best-cities-to-find-a-job-manpower-unemployment-2012-9?op=1)** > > Manpower's report reveals the best cities for job seekers amid rising unemployment. Some of the cities mentioned in this thread belong in the “best to find a job” category, including Charleston, SC and Asheville, NC. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/57 "2012-09-13T16:31:29Z")
> [@tsarina](#): > > This is probably a bad time to sell you on New Orleans, but if you can deal with tropical storms/hurricanes every so often, it has some of the best food and music in the country, ridiculously friendly people, unique architecture and neighborhood culture, a ton of food service jobs, and a cool laissez-faire approach to life. I don’t even get out all that much these days and I still have an absolute ball living here. Come and visit and see if you don’t stay forever. 😉 New Orleans is also another city where hiring is expanding. But it’s hot and muggy (though St Louis is as well…) ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/58 "2012-09-13T16:57:16Z")
I guess Asheville’s not that expensive. It made the list of [Most Livable Cities In Bargain Markets](http://realestate.msn.com/2012-msn-real-estate-most-livable-bargain-markets#11), as did several of the other cities mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/59 "2012-09-13T18:24:18Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > \There are surely others, but agents don’t generally put up links to the dumps, but oh the stories I could tell you about them. You don’t want to know. Actually, I really do. Do you want to start an “Ask the…” thread? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212/60 "2012-09-13T18:46:48Z")
I’ll do Portland – I like it well enough. You won’t be able to find any books – the public library is small, and the local universities don’t have basic texts for doing any sort of work in the humanities, except maybe if you’re an undergraduate trying to pass some humanities course. And it’s a dinky little cow town with a lot of hipsters, and a bunch of shitheads riding their dumb bikes. No art museum to speak of. No jazz club. But, you can spend a day walking thirty miles in Forest Park without driving out of the city, and not seeing the same tree twice. That’s a big sell, and it’s the reason I like it here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-love-your-city-sell-it-to-me/633212.md?page=2)