# Do YOU need God to be good? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968 "2011-12-21T17:56:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/1 "2011-12-21T17:56:20Z")
I’m really not sure where to put this, so I decided to emphasize the YOU aspect of the issue. Do you personally feel you do or do not need God to be good. I think the question inherently extends to society at large, but I wanted to aim for IMHO territory. The question arises for me from an article linked in one of the Hitchens threads, namely [Death of an Atheist](http://townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/2011/12/20/death_of_an_atheist/page/full/), by Cal Thomas. Excerpts: > [@](#): > > Why contribute to charity, or perform other good deeds? Without a source to inspire charity, such acts are sentimental affectations, devoid of meaning and purpose. I think this comment stands on its own and serves as the crux of Mr. Thomas’ argument. > [@](#): > > An atheist will tell you he doesn’t need God in order to be good, or perform good works. Maybe not, but the very notion of “good” must have both a definition and a definer. “Only God is good,” said Jesus. (Mark 10:18) Not sure why good needs a definer, more-so than other definitions, but I’m here to learn. > [@](#): > > Who is the author of evil? And if God is nonexistent, why do we call it evil? Again, not sure why we need God to define evil, but this would seem to imply that God is the “author” of evil (although Dan Brown might fit the bill too). > [@](#): > > [A]theists demand physical proof of God’s existence, as if they could bring God down and make Him into their image. What kind of God would that be? He would be their equal and, thus, not God at all. Hopefully not getting too far off topic with that, but if Moses et al had physical proof of God, and that renders God as no God at all, then the ethical guidelines rendered by that ersatz God (e.g. the Ten Commandments) should also be suspect. I’m voting no; one does not need God to be good, nor to define good, nor to provide meaning to life, talent, charity, compassion, love, affection or purpose. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/2 "2011-12-21T18:14:00Z")
I’m not going to argue with the quotes, because I don’t argue with dumb. Are those his best arguments? Not worth my time. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/3 "2011-12-21T18:17:40Z")
No. As a matter of fact, I’m not really impressed by anyone claiming to do good just because God told them to. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/4 "2011-12-21T18:28:04Z")
This thread is a bit ‘preaching to the choir’, though I’m not sure if the religious metaphor is really apt… But my answer to the question is of course not. I actually don’t believe in the concepts of good and evil, so maybe that is problematic within the confines of the topic as presented in the article. I believe there are actions that feel “right” to perform, that others judge as admirable and would like to emulate, and that have consequences of improving the lives of oneself and others. That’s the closest I can think of to an idea I have of ‘good’. And I think all of these judgments come only from humanity. The author of the article is standing on very shaky ground if he truly believes that the only reason we know that giving to those in need is ‘good’ is because a God defined it that way. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/5 "2011-12-21T18:29:23Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not going to argue with the quotes, because I don’t argue with dumb. I didn’t include them as arguments, more as a jumping off point. I’m not asking if you need Thomas or his article in order to be good. I’m just using that as an example of someone who, apparently, needs God to be good. (I hope he doesn’t start to question his faith! :eek:) It also appears to me that Thomas believes that one needs the Judeo-Christian God to be good. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/6 "2011-12-21T18:30:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No. As a matter of fact, I’m not really impressed by anyone claiming to do good just because God told them to. I think that they have to argue with atheists over this because otherwise it forces them to take a closer look at their own motivations, and they won’t like what they see. ---
**Author:** ![Tracyfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f14d63/32.png) [@Tracyfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracyfish)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/7 "2011-12-21T18:31:24Z")
No, I don’t think someone needs to believe in God to do good deeds. Cal Thomas asks why do good deeds, but I’d like to know why not? The inspiration is seeing someone in need and trying to make his or her life better. What further meaning is needed? ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/8 "2011-12-21T18:33:57Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > This thread is a bit ‘preaching to the choir’, though I’m not sure if the religious metaphor is really apt… …tithing to the rich, perhaps? Do you believe there aren’t Dopers who feel otherwise? I have found some lucid, compelling arguments in other threads that have made me think, if nothing else. Also, I really did mean this as a IMHO thread, so I don’t mean to preach. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/9 "2011-12-21T18:34:53Z")
I never got this whole “without God, we would all be running around raping and murdering each other” argument. First of all, as **TriPolar** says, if belief in God is the only thing keeping you from murdering me right now, you still have serious issues. Second (and I’m stealing from Dawkins, who puts it better than I could have), look at the progress we’ve made. We’ve abolished slavery, we’ve introduced gender equality, we have laws protecting the welfare of animals, and so forth, none of which have any Biblical support. I’d argue we’ve done BETTER without God. I also have to point out that it infuriates me when I ask for some kind of evidence and a moron like Cal Thomas gives me a variant of “Well God gave evidence to the Israelites and they still rebelled, so obviously evidence doesn’t work and you would still reject God anyway. That’s why he doesn’t bother to show you.” My dad says that shit all the time. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/10 "2011-12-21T18:35:59Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I didn’t include them as arguments, more as a jumping off point. Ah, gotcha. My answer is no. If I had to answer why I do good things, my knee-jerk response is that it makes me feel good about myself, but there’s something deeper than that. Maybe it makes me feel more in alignment with my values. Where did my values come from? I grew up in a Christian household, so maybe that laid the bedrock. I guess that the core of my values is the Golden Rule, which is a great rule that doesn’t need to be powered by any gods. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/11 "2011-12-21T18:38:43Z")
No, I’d say exactly the opposite. It’s always seemed to me that this position is actually indicative of an intellectually and psychologically inferior mentality, and in and of itself belies a certain fundamental dishonesty. In fact, I’m immediately suspicious of anybody who expresses this opinion, much in the same way that I’m immediately suspicious of people who are afraid of guns. I’m too hungry right now to explain this well (I don’t write well when I haven’t eaten), but I’ll try to find time to get back to this after I get some food in my stomach. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/12 "2011-12-21T18:40:42Z")
I personally don’t, but it seems a lot of religious people do ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/13 "2011-12-21T18:43:21Z")
I think that in general, people are generally good, and are so naturally. Religious people have just found a justification for it. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/14 "2011-12-21T18:48:59Z")
I live in Texas. I am good because I assume the other guy is armed. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/15 "2011-12-21T19:06:48Z")
No. I’m an ethical humanist atheist. Instead of anything spiritual, I get my motivation to do good from 1) a desire to improve my fellow man and 2) a desire to adhere to my personal set of ethics. Depending on the situation, I try to apply both Utilitarianism and The Golden Rule when interacting with other people. It’s worked out well so far. I donate money and/or things to philanthropic causes when I can afford to, and I’ve never committed any crimes more major than speeding or jaywalking (and that one time I forgot to renew my vehicle registration, whoops). I’ve never been arrested. I’ve never stolen anything. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/16 "2011-12-21T19:08:04Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > I’m immediately suspicious of anybody who expresses this opinion, much in the same way that I’m immediately suspicious of people who are afraid of guns. \ I’ll try to find time to get back to this… Please do, as I am unable to draw the parallels myself. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/17 "2011-12-21T19:11:42Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > Please do, as I am unable to draw the parallels myself. 😕 I’m a little confused myself. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/18 "2011-12-21T19:19:06Z")
Well yes, but not in the way the OP is taking it. Anything done in the name of the god of Love is good automatically and by definition, even mistakes will be corrected to be good by God Himself. What we need God for is to correct our mistakes and make everything good, so we can live as flawed people and not get penalized for it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/19 "2011-12-21T19:39:47Z")
**kanicbird** , didn’t the hijackers slam planes into the WTC in the name of the God of Love? Was that good automatically? How do you reconcile that? ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/20 "2011-12-21T19:41:07Z")
I would say, to ultimately simplify things, that I follow the Golden Rule of doing unto others, etc. There is no god necessary to do the right thing. To complicate it a bit, I know that I feel better and am a better person when I live an altruistic lifestyle. I like helping people. I think that makes the planet a better place for us all to live, but I’m not concerned that there’s a god approving of what I do. I’m more concerned that my mother approves, ha! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968.md?page=2)