# Do YOU need God to be good? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968 "2011-12-21T17:56:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/81 "2011-12-23T14:02:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Not at all. You need to consider “enlightened self-interest”. > > “Murder is wrong because if we agree murder is not wrong, then it would not be wrong for someone to murder me or my loved ones. Since I do not agree that someone murdering me is not wrong, I agree to work towards a society where murder is deemed wrong in order to minimize the risk of me being murdered.” > > It’s an applied version of the Golden Rule - you don’t do unto others (or condone others doing unto others) what you would not want them to do unto you. Also, there’s the fact that we are all the same species. Morality may not be objective, but we can treat a great deal of it as if it was objective because it is based on our shared biological and instinctive nature. To use an example tied into your own argument; we as a species of individuals (as opposed to some hive species) value our own lives. Therefore, we can safely treat the life of everyone we meet as being valuable to them with little chance of them disagreeing with us; we can \*act \*as it was an objective rule, even though it isn’t. Some hypothetical hive aliens might disagree - but they aren’t here. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/82 "2011-12-23T18:33:22Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Ultimately you reach a point where you have to say “just because”. > > Not at all. You need to consider “enlightened self-interest”. > > “Murder is wrong because if we agree murder is not wrong, then it would not be wrong for someone to murder me or my loved ones. Since I do not agree that someone murdering me is not wrong, I agree to work towards a society where murder is deemed wrong in order to minimize the risk of me being murdered.” But why do you not agree that someone murdering you is not wrong? I have to agree with **Shodan** here: you have to make a value judgment sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/83 "2011-12-23T18:35:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Also, there’s the fact that we are all the same species. Morality may not be objective, but we can treat a great deal of it as if it was objective because it is based on our shared biological and instinctive nature. > > To use an example tied into your own argument; we as a species of individuals (as opposed to some hive species) value our own lives. Therefore, we can safely treat the life of everyone we meet as being valuable to them with little chance of them disagreeing with us; we can \*act \*as it was an objective rule, even though it isn’t. Some hypothetical hive aliens might disagree - but they aren’t here. This, on the other hand, is a good point. Yeesh, how often do I get to agree with **Shodan** and **Der Trihs** within moments of each other in the same thread? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/84 "2011-12-24T04:49:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There may not be. It could be a false line of research. But I think it is suggestive, if nothing else, to read reports of “lower animals” engaging in behaviors we recognize as “good.” There might even be a tautology involved, in that we (in part) call these behaviors good because we have instincts that promote those behaviors in us. > > Anyway, I advise giving it more consideration. I have considered the idea that humans have hard-wired moral instincts, and I’ve found it wanting, for the reasons I have above. First of all, human societies have had vastly different moralities in different times and places. Secondly, even within one particular society such as modern American society, different individuals practice vastly different moralities. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/85 "2011-12-24T06:53:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I have considered the idea that humans have hard-wired moral instincts, and I’ve found it wanting, for the reasons I have above. First of all, human societies have had vastly different moralities in different times and places. Secondly, even within one particular society such as modern American society, different individuals practice vastly different moralities. I would have to disagree. I think that some basic notions of morality are so widespread as to be instinctive. The taboo against incest, or a certain degree of respect for property, or a reluctance to engage in violence against those within the tribe/clan/family. Sure, there are exceptions to all of these…but they are pretty rare. And it has been suggested that significant exceptions can usually be ascribed to straitened circumstances. Respect for property diminishes in a time of severe famine, for instance. And even then! David Quammen has an interesting essay, “The Desert is a Mnemonic Device,” where he notes that desert cultures often evolve a tradition of hospitality for strangers – the famous Bedouin ethic of hospitality is a powerful example – that promotes survival. The fact that dogs and rats exhibit “good” behaviors suggests, to many of us, that such values may well come from instinctive levels of the brain. The fact that other animals – reptiles, most fish, most birds – don’t exhibit the same behaviors is also indicative. Anyway, shrug: disagreement is at the heart of free will! ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/86 "2011-12-24T20:43:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No. As a matter of fact, I’m not really impressed by anyone claiming to do good just because God told them to. Agreed. What’s more meaningful? I volunteer in a soup kitchen because I want to suck up to a deity / get into heaven, or because I want to help people who would otherwise go hungry? As for who defines good, I don’t see why society “can’t.” If you’re only good because your god told you to be – and not because _you_ want to be – I can’t say that I’d think you were genuinely very good. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/87 "2011-12-24T23:03:24Z")
Yeesh, that Cal Thomas article reads like [another Onion headline](http://www.theonion.com/articles/fumbling-inarticulate-obituary-writer-somehow-losi,26890/) coming true. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/88 "2011-12-26T23:29:49Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > But why do you not agree that someone murdering you is not wrong? I have to agree with **Shodan** here: you have to make a value judgment sooner or later. I mentioned “enlightened self-interest”. That would be the “self-interest” part. If we have to break it down to the level of deciding whether or not I’m in favor of being murdered, I think we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/89 "2011-12-27T03:29:06Z")
I could see how the word of God could serve to define what ‘good’ is, and to make clear which among the competing definitions (if any now extant) is the true one. The problem is that we don’t have any comprehensive, universally-agreed upon account of what God thinks is good. (I’m an atheist who’s willing to respect your religion, but I’m not willing to concede that you speak for God. Just like you probably feel about religions that conflict with yours). So us folks are reduced to arguing with each other about what God thinks, which to this atheist doesn’t look a whole lot different than arguing what ‘good’ is. Until we can all agree on what God thinks is good, we’re reduced to dealing with other human beings to solve the matter. Most societies agree on many things (murder and robbery are bad, etc.) This is a sign of progress. The fact that some religions regard alcohol as an important sacrament while others regard it as sinful shows that religion is also still working on this good/bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/90 "2011-12-27T05:44:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No. As a matter of fact, I’m not really impressed by anyone claiming to do good just because God told them to. This. If I “do good,” it’s because I recognize that someone’s in need and I have the means to help . . . not because of some “commandment” or threat of retribution if I don’t. And in general, I don’t need the subjectivity of religion to guide my thoughts or actions. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/91 "2011-12-27T13:22:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I mentioned “enlightened self-interest”. That would be the “self-interest” part. If we have to break it down to the level of deciding whether or not I’m in favor of being murdered, I think we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture. But either is _is_ or it is _not_ an absolute statement. Either we can totally derive our definition of what is “good” from purely deductive logic without referencing an axiom or two (which was **Shodan’s** point, that it comes down to axioms) or we are in fact referencing an axiom. Deciding that surviving longer, or not dying via murder as opposed to dying by something else, is good, is axiomatic in your formulation. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/92 "2011-12-27T13:46:20Z")
> [@slm2955](#): > > No you don’t, I’ve met alot of atheists who were decent people. This was my initial thought. My conflict is that while I’m agnostic, I was raised in a very fundamental Baptist sect. I grew up in a country (USA) where most of the social values reflect some aspects of Christian values. My concepts of what is right and what is wrong is certainly influenced by that. I don’t “need” God to ensure I make the right choices but I can’t deny that God (even if he only exists in my father’s mind) isn’t part of what makes me “good”. Of course, it is possible to have a society imprint those values independent of Christianity but that wasn’t my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/93 "2011-12-31T21:09:01Z")
Atheists can have a moral code, but they can have no theoretical/philosophical justification for absolute morality nor can they have their moral failings redeemed. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/94 "2012-01-01T14:24:48Z")
Enemies shorten your life expectancy, and reduce your quality of life. Friends lengthen your life expectancy, and improve your quality of life. It is in your interest to make friends, and avoid making enemies. Therefore, it is in your interest to be nice to people. The choices you make have consequences, and the universe is not interested in your excuses. If you choose to play with fire, then don’t whine when you get burned. If you think before you act, and you give “need” priority over “desire”, and you give “long-term” priority over “short-term”, then you end up with a behavior pattern that most bible-thumpers can get along with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/95 "2012-01-01T14:51:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Atheists can have a moral code, but they can have no theoretical/philosophical justification for absolute morality nor can they have their moral failings redeemed. Atheists have no more or less problem declaring an “absolute morality” than theists, since anyone who claims such a thing exists is just making a baseless assertion anyway. And God is irrelevant to the question, since if morality is absolute it’s by definition true regardless of what your god’s opinion is on the matter. Nor do atheists have any more or less ability to “redeem their moral failings”. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/96 "2012-01-01T15:32:11Z")
Of course not. This is the best short argument I’ve seen that shows that morality isn’t derived from god. [ > [@](#): > > God, say the religious fundamentalists, is the source of all morality; there can be no morality without a Judge who rewards and punishes. If we did not fear hell and yearn for heaven, then what would stop people from murdering each other left and right? > > Suppose Omega makes a credible threat that if you ever step inside a bathroom between 7AM and 10AM in the morning, he’ll kill you. Would you be panicked by the prospect of Omega withdrawing his threat? Would you cower in existential terror and cry: “If Omega withdraws his threat, then what’s to keep me from going to the bathroom?” No; you’d probably be quite relieved at your increased opportunity to, ahem, relieve yourself. > > Which is to say: The very fact that a religious person would be afraid of God withdrawing Its threat to punish them for committing murder, shows that they have a revulsion of murder which is independent of whether God punishes murder or not. If they had no sense that murder was wrong independently of divine retribution, the prospect of God not punishing murder would be no more existentially horrifying than the prospect of God not punishing sneezing. ]([http://lesswrong.com/lw/ky/fake\_morality/](http://lesswrong.com/lw/ky/fake_morality/)) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/97 "2012-01-02T04:50:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Atheists can have a moral code, but they can have no theoretical/philosophical justification for absolute morality nor can they have their moral failings redeemed. “I, **Fear Itself** , hereby forgive myself for all my moral failings, for all eternity.” How is that any less binding than that of other religions? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968/98 "2012-01-02T05:00:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > “I, **Fear Itself** , hereby forgive myself for all my moral failings, for all eternity.” > > How is that any less binding than that of other religions? It’s more binding, given that you are verifiably real. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-god-to-be-good/606968.md?page=4)