# Do you need more faith to believe in evolution than in intelligent design? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836 "2004-06-17T08:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![bodswood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@bodswood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bodswood)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/301 "2004-06-24T06:42:29Z")
And you’d be willing to stake your life on this, Diogenes? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/302 "2004-06-24T06:47:45Z")
> [@bodswood](#): > > And you’d be willing to stake your life on this, Diogenes? Who the hell says he has to? You get evidence and explanations, you reply with non sequiturs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/303 "2004-06-24T06:59:55Z")
> [@bodswood](#): > > And you’d be willing to stake your life on this, Diogenes? Stake my life on what? That stick bugs adapted to look like trees? Sure, I’ll stake my life on it. I’m not guessing after all. Why would you ask such a strange question? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/304 "2004-06-24T07:00:16Z")
**bodswood** , I’m starting to lose the faith in you that caused me to defend you a couple of pages ago. Why do you not accept the ample evidence provided to you? Where is your counter-evidence? As for the common ancestor of humans and chimps, read **Diogenes** ’s excellent post comparing evolution with language. There is no (and probably will never be) a skeleton to which we can point and say “This guy had two kids, and one of them was the patriarch of chimps and the other was the patriarch of humans”. It doesn’t work that way. You’ve stated you don’t believe in extinct hominids. Then what exactly were the Neanderthals? They had clothes, tools and ceremonial burial. Did God create two intelligent species and then decide he liked one best? What were all the other hominids we’ve found? ---
**Author:** ![bodswood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@bodswood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bodswood)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/305 "2004-06-24T07:47:45Z")
Of course, there are other scientists who believe that Neanderthal man, as well as, among others, Cro-Magnon man, are true men and should be classified as Homo sapiens. Not for nothing perhaps did Bourdieu describe classification as “symbolic violence”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/306 "2004-06-24T07:56:29Z")
> [@bodswood](#): > > First off, I don’t believe evolution, Darwinian evolution, is a fact. The reasons for doubting the theory, or theories, centre on the problems of observation and the concatenation of chance changes. > > It just seems more plausible to believe that a perfectly disguised stick insect, for example, started out that way than ending up that way after a series of thousands (millions? billions?) of chance mutations. The truth seems literally to be staring us in the face. Evolution isn’t just a series of random changes; that is only part of the process; natural selection is what makes it work; the random changes that happen to be beneficial help the organism survive to reproduce (passing on it’s distinctiveness); the random changes that are detrimental edit themselves out of the picture by hindering the survival and reproduction of the organism. > [@](#): > > Surely one cannot be mad to believe this, given the weakness of the countervailing evidence? There is a huge weight of evidence, in many different, independent lines of research, in support of evolution; as far as I know, there isn’t anything at all like that for creationism, which seems to find _argument_ and _distraction_ adequate. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/307 "2004-06-24T08:11:45Z")
> [@bodswood](#): > > Of course, there are other scientists who believe that Neanderthal man, as well as, among others, Cro-Magnon man, are true men and should be classified as Homo sapiens. You’re grasping at straws. [Neanderthal skulls](http://hannover.park.org/Canada/Museum/man/neader.html) are clearly different from ours, even to a layman. Furthermore, classification isn’t the issue. We could classify elephants as homo sapiens, but that wouldn’t make them more closely related to us. Explain the various forms of [Australopithecus](http://hannover.park.org/Canada/Museum/man/evnman3.html). Why did God create them and then destroy them? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/308 "2004-06-24T08:20:25Z")
**bodswood** : The Earth is billions of years old and homo sapiens has been around for only a tiny recent portion of this. AGREED? ---
**Author:** ![bodswood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@bodswood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bodswood)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/309 "2004-06-24T08:22:36Z")
Every theory has its weak points. If you were asked to give the weakest part of the theory of evolution (and given the incentive of say a million dollars for the best answer), what would you write? ---
**Author:** ![bodswood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@bodswood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bodswood)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/310 "2004-06-24T08:24:21Z")
SM, it’s possible but not beyond doubt. BTW, isn’t Cardiff in Wales?! ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/311 "2004-06-24T08:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > SM, it’s possible but not beyond doubt. It is far beyond _reasonable_ doubt, agreed? God would surely be _misleading_ us by removing all the homo sapiens fossils from everywhere except the very top strata? And, like I asked before, why did we only start writing and building a few thousand years ago if we’ve been around for _billions_? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/312 "2004-06-24T09:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Every theory has its weak points. If you were asked to give the weakest part of the theory of evolution (and given the incentive of say a million dollars for the best answer), what would you write? In science, a [Theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory) has a special meaning. Unlike, say, “hypothesis” or “idea” or “conjecture” it means it has stood the incredibly rigorous challenge of decades of research which tested any weak points _to the limit_. Like asking me “what is the weakest point of the Theory of Gravity, Germ Theory or Plate Tectonic Theory?”, I struggle to give an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/313 "2004-06-24T09:50:48Z")
> [@bodswood](#): > > Every theory has its weak points. If you were asked to give the weakest part of the theory of evolution (and given the incentive of say a million dollars for the best answer), what would you write? I would write: “The weakest aspect of the theory of evolution is that it is almost impossible to explain to a listener determined not to accept it. In particular, the scientific theory of evolution is supported by such a vast quantity, diversity and weight of evidences, that it is too easy to skip (or be driven) from one subtopic to another in rapid succession, without ever having stopped to take stock. It is too easy for a debate to become unproductive when the opponent, motivated by religious dogma, is easily able to change the subject every time progress begins to be made toward a conclusion.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/314 "2004-06-24T13:36:25Z")
> [@bodswood](#): > > Every theory has its weak points. If you were asked to give the weakest part of the theory of evolution (and given the incentive of say a million dollars for the best answer), what would you write? OK, I’m going to ask you this one more time, and if I get no response I will assume you are pulling our collective legs and quit this thread: _Explain how creationism or ID is science. Let’s take ID as the hypothesis and tell us how you apply the scientific method to it._\* \*I linked to a site explaining the scientific method in an earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/315 "2004-06-24T13:50:07Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It is too easy for a debate to become unproductive when the opponent, motivated by religious dogma, is easily able to change the subject every time progress begins to be made toward a conclusion. What I find interesting is that **bodswood** uses the scienticfic nature of inquiry as an rationale to ignore or dismiss evidence, because it _might_ be in error; but has NO PROBLEM accepting that a deity waved its mighty arms and created humans…just like that. It seem to me that **bodswood** feels, and please correct me if I am mistating your opinion…If say Professor Smith, finds another fossil and changes his mind on a particular path of evolution (not evolution itself) but in what information the new find adds or modifies…that’s somehow enough to prove that the **entire** concept of evolution is a just guess. He wants evolution written in stone, with every link laid out in a line: A to B to C and although **that’s not possible** , the impossiblity of it can mean to some people, it didn’t happen. It’s has if they’re saying " If evolution is a science then prove it…show me the steps…ALL the steps. If you can’t do that then God created everything…because he doesn’t HAVE to show the steps. It JUST IS." You will never convince him or his ilk…because the one thing that will convince them…that all important monkey/human hybrid doesn’t exist. There is no missing link find, because there are no missing links…we are the links. As far as explaining the extinct hominids fossils, a relative of mine believes that Satan created them AND the Dinosaurs to confuse man. That Satan uses science to turn Man from the face of God. He believes that the fossil record, the entire fossil record is nothing but a hoax, created by Satan. A true believer… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/316 "2004-06-24T13:58:49Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > As far as explaining the extinct hominids fossils, a relative of mine believes that Satan created them AND the Dinosaurs to confuse man. That Satan uses science to turn Man from the face of God. He believes that the fossil record, the entire fossil record is nothing but a hoax, created by Satan. > > A true believer… Riiight, So Satan created earth and life on it then? God only created the _modern_ animals and humans, a couple of thousand years ago, pinching Satan’s ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/317 "2004-06-24T13:59:50Z")
**bodswood** , do you believe these statements? 1. In any given generation of an organism, more than one individual is born. 2. Those individuals are not identical. Even if they have the same parent or parents, there are differences in chromosomal segregation, crossover, mutation, the movement of transposons, etc. Even “identical” twins are not truly identical. 3. There usually aren’t enough resources available for all of them to reproduce before they die. Some will starve to death while young. Some will be eaten. Some simply won’t be able to attract a mate (in the case of sexual reproduction, a partner is a “resource” in this sense). 4. Those individuals with genes that give them an advantage are more likely to reproduce. This advantage can be a slightly better ability to find food, a slightly better way to avoid being eaten, a slightly better way to attract a mate–pretty much anything. 5. The individuals who survive will have a chance of passing on their genes to their offspring. The individuals who do not survive will not. 6. Over a long enough time period, the “better chance of surviving” will add up, meaning there will be more of the individuals with the advantage than individuals without the advantage. 7. The Earth is billions of years old. Please tell us which of those statements you disagree with. You don’t believe in evolution, so you must disagree with at least one of those statements. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/318 "2004-06-24T14:18:14Z")
An apologetics course I had to take in high school at the local bible thumper gave me an interesting point. When Satan was expelled from heaven, he landed on earth. This of course, would do some damage, because he was thrown pretty hard (but not hard enough to kill him). Ergo, Satan was the Jurassic asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs and most of the other fossils at that time. I never understood why they call that stuff apologetics, they aren’t apologizing for anything. Bodswood might have a small point about agendas however. Remember, either Java man or Peking man (or both, I don’t exactly remember) turned out to be a pig’s jaw. However, this was found out and thrown out of the record, but for the short term false science does occur. Cold fusion et al. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/319 "2004-06-24T14:18:42Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Riiight, So Satan created earth and life on it then? God only created the _modern_ animals and humans, a couple of thousand years ago, pinching Satan’s ideas. No…no. God created life. Satan created the fossils (which AREN’T alive) and uses his **powers of deception tm** , to trick scientists into thinking that the earth is billions of years old. It’s all just a parlor trick…something to fool the weak of mind and spirit… What… you don’t have one of these guys in YOUR family? ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836/320 "2004-06-24T14:21:27Z")
I suppose in my last link that the critters killed weren’t necessarily fossils \*at that time. \* That’s what happens when you wake up too early. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-need-more-faith-to-believe-in-evolution-than-in-intelligent-design/250836.md?page=17)