I thought I had explained myself fairly well in post #8
Apparently there is some gray area in that paragraph, so let me try again.
If I am riding my road bicycle, and I take my hands off the bars, as long as I am over about 10 mph I will not fall over. If while my hands are off the bars, I wish to change lanes, or round a gentle curve, I can lean my body and my bicycle will go around said curve, or make said lane change. This cornering ability is limited however by both speed and angle. Speed and angle have an inverse relationship. I can do this if I am pedaling or coasting.
I do not know (because I have not observed) if my bars countersteer by themselves or if there is some other mechanism at work.
I was under the opinion that any 12 year old kid could do this on a bike. I know all my friends could back when I was 12.
I do not believe any of us had a special dispensation or waiver from the laws of physics.
I believe this is the case. I’m going from memory of my no-handed bicycle riding days. When you initiate the turn, your hips will move the bike slightly and quickly away from the turn while the bike “falls” into the turn, then leaning into the turn will correct the path of the bike.
As mentioned in the Wiki article, and my first post, “[Coutersteer] is the only way a rider can cause a single-track vehicle to turn.”
Like I said, I think we need a video to prove/disprove this.
I agree that no-hands riding of a bicycle with a free fork involves the fork “falling” into the turn. I may be able to lock down the fork of a bicycle soon, but I’m tied up preparing for a vacation right now. I won’t be back until 4-15.
When I was 10, my bike’s top tube was actually two small parallel tubes, spaced an inch or two apart horizontally. My trick was getting at the top of a hill, heading down it, placing my feet on the top tubes, then standing upright with my arms outstretched to the side. Scares the hell out of me to think about it now but I never had trouble.
If you are ridding with no hands and you lean, the cycle automatically counter steers a tiny bit.
Now, have i turned without imputing counter steer? Yes. Does an in-trail two wheeled conveyance need counter steer? Only at speed. At slow speeds, it can be steered with direct turning of the forks.
No, hips do not shift, I can steer by tipping my head sideways.
I can steer by leaning just as I can increase speed by twisting the throttle. Is it that simple, no… But the part I do is…
Watching the video and reading the article tells me this. He says the bike will turn, just slowly and not much. It shows it turning a little in the video. I can shift from one wheel track to another with no hands by leaning. You can see it in the video. So, we need to define turning.
Normal corners where a lot of counter steer is needed and gentle swooping curves in a highway that can be done with no hands.
A locked fork is 99.0000% un-ridable…
A unlocked fork automatically counter steers when leaned.
For what most feel is normal riding, rider induced counter steer is used …
From a dead stop I can start going with a turned fork and ride in a circle at a waking pace and never turn them to the opposite direction past the straight ahead position. Now, the tiny movements that are used to keep the bike upright may be argued as counter steering…
The video just shows that you can’t road race worth a dam without counter steer…
Have you never stood and leaned the bike way over while leaning the opposite direction and keeping the bike running straight down the road?
Never had to lean opposite the passenger when they unexpectedly shifted their weight?
Yes.
I think people had an issue with you responding to the statement which had the word “steer” in it then you saying that you could turn your bike without steering with your hands. The freewheeling bike itself will steer without your input.
Basically, and you know this, the bike has to steer in order to turn, whether you force the steer or the bike does it by itself.
So, yes, we’re clear.
I talked to an advanced biker (in that he’s owned several motorcycles over many years) last summer and the topic of counter steer came up. He didn’t realise that you had to counter steer at speed to make the bike turn. When I explained to him that at speeds lower than about 12-15 mph you could turn by aiming your tire in the direction of the turn but at higher speeds you had to counter steer he thought I was totally bullshitting. It forced him to go on a 15 minute ride while I waited in his driveway for him to believe me. :eek:
Counter steer is why low speed maneuvering of a motorbike is so awkward for beginners. There’s that speed at which you’re just stable enough to stay upright but also right around the same speed where you need to counter steer to make an s-turn or u-turn. Tricky.
I’ve been experimenting with this since this weekend, and I think the difference, as has been said, between motorcycles and bicycles comes down to two basic things. Fork rake angle, which affects trail, and the pure mass and angular inertia of a motorcycle and its wheels/engine.
Also, since countersteering isn’t the sole source of turning at low speeds, I’m wondering if when we turn our bicycles without using our hands if we’re not going fast enough to countersteer. My bike has two flat tires, so I haven’t experimented in a while, but I don’t remember being able to go nearly as fast with my hands off the bars. I don’t know if that’s because I couldn’t leverage against the handlebars to pedal harder, or if it’s because I was subconsciously keeping my speed under the countersteer threshold?
Side note: I rode my motorcycle a couple hundred miles this weekend, and I could easily get it to drift left, but couldn’t get it to drift right at all. Then again, my front axle is a little bent, so I think I need to do some more experimenting. :smack:
I’ve been thinking about how one might initiate a turn on a bike with no hands (I can also do this, but it’s an unconscious process). If you want to turn right, you would twist your legs/hips to the left (and therefore your upper body right). Since the back wheel is fixed on its track, the twisting to the left will cause the front wheel to briefly countersteer to the left. That gets your lean started, and you let the bike’s stability keep you in the turn from there.
When I say “bike” I think bicycles, which I have been riding avidly for about 40 years now, not motorcycles, which I’ve only once been the pilot-in-command, and that was brief. I imagine this no-hands twisting-body countersteer would be much less effective on a motorcycle.
