# Do you read Kipling's poetry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 11, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649 "2012-11-11T02:50:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/21 "2012-11-11T18:47:10Z")
> [@](#): > > See you the dimpled track that runs, > All hollow through the wheat? > O that was where they hauled the guns > That smote King Philip’s fleet! > > See you our little mill that clacks, > So busy by the brook? > She has ground her corn and paid her tax > Ever since Domesday Book. > > See you our stilly woods of oak, > And the dread ditch beside? > O that was where the Saxons broke, > On the day that Harold died! > > See you the windy levels spread > About the gates of Rye? > O that was where the Northmen fled, > When Alfred’s ships came by! > > See you our pastures wide and lone, > Where the red oxen browse? > O there was a City thronged and known, > Ere London boasted a house! > > And see you, after rain, the trace > Of mound and ditch and wall? > O that was a Legion’s camping-place, > When Caesar sailed from Gaul! > > And see you marks that show and fade, > Like shadows on the Downs? > O they are the lines the Flint Men made, > To guard their wondrous towns! > > Trackway and Camp and City lost, > Salt Marsh where now is corn; > Old Wars, old Peace, old Arts that cease, > And so was England born! > > She is not any common Earth, > Water or Wood or Air, > But Merlin’s Isle of Gramarye, > Where you and I will fare. Kipling knew a fair amount about the East & he knew what price the British (including Scottish & Irish) Tommies paid to maintain the Empire. I utterly disagree with the intellectual conclusions he drew, but the more enlightened writers of his day were usually content to enjoy the benefits of Empire & fix their minds on Higher Things… Besides, he could write. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/22 "2012-11-11T20:18:56Z")
I prefer the prose but his poems are undeniably powerful. I find Kipling’s post World War One poetry (like _[The King’s Pilgrimage](http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_kingpilgrim.htm)_) especially poignant, as Kipling’s only son had died at Loos. Oh and his work with the Imperial War Graves Commission should be acknowledged - he had a lot to do with the whole look and feel of the Commonwealth war cemetaries. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/23 "2012-11-11T20:57:56Z")
I believe the inscription “Known unto God” on the tombs of unknown soldiers was Kipling 's idea. I like most of Kipling’s poetry. He definitely could turn a phrase. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/24 "2012-11-11T21:12:41Z")
As well as 'Their Name Liveth For Evermore" and “The Glorious Dead”. I don’t think we can credit/blame Kipling for the inscription on the Machine Gun Corps Memorial though: > [@](#): > > ‘Saul has slain his thousands; But David his tens of thousands’ ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/25 "2012-11-11T21:30:37Z")
There are many fine ones. I think the best might be _The Mary Gloster_. (It’s long, and probably needs to be read a couple of times.) ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/26 "2012-11-11T22:59:26Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > That’s not how I interpreted the poem. Kipling was pretty explicit about it in the last two stanzas, in which he says that man “dare not leave a place for her” at the table when conferring over war, since “no woman understands” the “God of Abstract Justice.” Because of this, woman “must command but may not govern.” And woman knows this - she accepts and even warns that she may not govern. This is not an enlightened man giving women their due. It’s a 19th-century reactionary proclaiming the superiority of his own kind. By the way, I also think Kipling’s point of view in _The Female of the Species_ is plainly false. Women are not more savage than men. They are less eager to go to war. They are less prone to use violence. Women are not she-bears. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/27 "2012-11-12T01:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > By the way, I also think Kipling’s point of view in _The Female of the Species_ is plainly false. Women are not more savage than men. They are less eager to go to war. They are less prone to use violence. Women are not she-bears. If you’re talking about the average woman vs. the average man, you’re probably right. However, some of us could scare she-bears. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/28 "2012-11-12T01:21:06Z")
I have always loved _Jobson’s Amen_ for the way it contrasts blistering English jingoism with the most amazing, poingant, wistful imagery from all parts of the rest of the world: [QUOTE=Kipling] \* Blessed be the English and all their ways and works. Cursèd be the Infidels, Hereticks, and Turks!\* “Amen,” quo’ Jobson, " but where I used to lie Was neither Candle, Bell nor Book to curse my brethren by. “But a palm-tree in full bearing, bowing down, bowing down, To a surf that drove unsparing at the brown, walled town Conches in a temple, oil-lamps in a dome And a low moon out of Africa said: ‘This way home!’” _“Blessèd be the English and all that they profess. Cursèd be the Savages that prance in nakedness!”_ “Amen,” quo’ Jobson, "but where I used to lie Was neither shirt nor pantaloons to catch my brethren by: “But a well-wheel slowly creaking, going round, going round, By a water-channel leaking over drowned, warm ground – Parrots very busy in the trellised pepper-vine – And a high sun over Asia shouting: ‘Rise and shine!’” _“Blessèd be the English and everything they own. Cursèd be the Infidels that bow to wood and stone!”_ “Amen,” quo’ Jobson, "but where I used to lie Was neither pew nor Gospelleer to save my brethren by: “But a desert stretched and stricken, left and right, left and right, Where the piled mirages thicken under white-hot light – A skull beneath a sand-hill and a viper coiled inside – And a red wind out of Libya roaring: ‘Run and hide!’” _“Blessèd be the English and all they make or do. Cursèd be the Hereticks who doubt that this is true!”_ “Amen,” quo’ Jobson, "but where I mean to die Is neither rule nor calliper to judge the matter by: “But Himalaya heavenward-heading, sheer and vast, sheer and vast, In a million summits bedding on the last world’s past – A certain sacred mountain where the scented cedars climb, And – the feet of my Beloved hurrying back through Time!” [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/29 "2012-11-12T01:26:50Z")
I generally don’t like poetry. I read Kipling’s poems and the beginning of his stories or chapters, but if it doesn’t grab me right away I’ll skip it. I memorized 2 from The Jungle Books and recited them to my daughters throughout their sleepless phases (one which has lasted nearly eight years and counting) Now Chil the Kite brings home the night That Mang the Bat sets free– The herds are shut in byre and hut, For loosed till dawn are we. This is the hour of pride and power, Talon and tush and claw. Oh, hear the call!–Good hunting all That keep the Jungle Law! and also: Now this is the Law of the Jungle – as old and as true as the sky; And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back – For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack. (there is more, but while out of copyright maybe it isn’t appropriate to paste the entire poem) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/30 "2012-11-12T22:16:50Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > If you’re talking about the average woman vs. the average man, you’re probably right. However, some of us could scare she-bears. _Ipsa dixit_. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/31 "2012-11-12T23:29:58Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > [Leslie Fish](http://lesliefish.com/) has put a bunch of his poems to music. She’s got no kind of voice, but it all works. I have Cold Iron on tape, and I’m considering getting it on CD, along with Our Fathers of Old (which I see has a setting of Recessional). Hmm, I had not heard of this although I have some of the late [Peter Bellamy’s Kipling settings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bellamy#Recording_Kipling.27s_ballads), which I LOVE. He too wasn’t the most melodious singer around, but the songs are really great IMO. Some of the poems that I never paid much attention to on the page (Cuckoo Fair, Ford o’ Kabul River, The Land, The Liner She’s a Lady, Astrologer’s Song) really haunt me in Bellamy’s settings. (Good discussion of Kipling settings in general [here](http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_music1.htm), mentioning both Bellamy and Fish.) I’m fonder of Kipling’s rather sly frankly comic poems or chantey/ballad types (Code of Morals, Back to the Army Again, Cells) than I am of his (slightly mawkish, to be honest) dramatic or elegaic verses. But I have to say that I think Gentleman-Rankers strikes just the right note there: genuine tragedy that isn’t diminished by making fun of its own self-pity. > [@MacSpon](#): > > I have always loved Jobson’s Amen for the way it contrasts blistering English jingoism with the most amazing, poingant, wistful imagery from all parts of the rest of the world True dat. The deliberately naive tone of We and They does quite a good job with the same juxtaposition in a different way: > [@](#): > > All good people agree, > And all good people say, > All nice people, like Us, are We > And every one else is They: > But if you cross over the sea, > Instead of over the way, > You may end by (think of it!) looking on We > As only a sort of They! > [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > One that is particularly relevant right now is The Gods of the Copybook Headings. :dubious: No, I think you must be mistaken: that one’s about socialism. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/32 "2012-11-13T17:14:01Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I generally don’t like poetry. I read Kipling’s poems and the beginning of his stories or chapters, but if it doesn’t grab me right away I’ll skip it. > > I memorized 2 from The Jungle Books and recited them to my daughters throughout their sleepless phases (one which has lasted nearly eight years and counting)… Kipling’s _Just So Stories_ are also worth a read with kids. Wonderful imagery and poetic flow, as in his reference in “The Elephant’s Child” to “the great grey-green, greasy Limpopo River, all set about with fever-trees [where the] Bi-Coloured-Python-Rock-Snake” dwells. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/33 "2012-11-13T18:21:39Z")
For some reason, this (moderately famous) stanza from [Arithmetic on the Frontier](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Arithmetic_on_the_Frontier) has got stuck in my head and won’t unstick: > [@](#): > > A scrimmage in a Border Station— > A canter down some dark defile— > Two thousand pounds of education > Drops to a ten-rupee jezail— Something about the rhythm. Or the meter. Or the cadence. (I was never quite sure how those things fitted together.) ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/34 "2012-11-13T20:56:00Z")
That’s an excellent analysis of asymmetric warfare from a human resources point of view… ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649/35 "2012-11-14T04:34:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Hmm, I had not heard of this although I have some of the late [Peter Bellamy’s Kipling settings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bellamy#Recording_Kipling.27s_ballads), which I LOVE. He too wasn’t the most melodious singer around, but the songs are really great IMO. Some of the poems that I never paid much attention to on the page (Cuckoo Fair, Ford o’ Kabul River, The Land, The Liner She’s a Lady, Astrologer’s Song) really haunt me in Bellamy’s settings. (Good discussion of Kipling settings in general [here](http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_music1.htm), mentioning both Bellamy and Fish.) I suspect that’s because Fish is not really known outside of the science fiction fandom/medieval recreation worlds, but she’s big there. 🙂 I’ve been trying to find her version of [The Quest](http://www.telelib.com/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/p4/quest.html), but all I’ve been able to find is [Rimini](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gYvS8L0nDY&feature=share&list=LPcPKzstZH8CU). Which is a fun song, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-read-kiplings-poetry/640649.md?page=1)