# Do you stand during the Pledge of Allegiance? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165 "2015-10-19T19:54:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/61 "2015-10-20T14:01:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > We took oaths to renounce our old citizenship and be loyal to our adopted country. We changed our citizenship. > … > The Pledge means nothing. It’s just words. So are the words “duty - honor - country”. Wait… what were the oaths made of? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/62 "2015-10-20T14:02:39Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Wait… what were the oaths made of? Chocolate chip cookies. No, apple pie. > [@](#): > > I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." But again, they were just words. What matters are actions. I would submit that my parents (and me!) giving up everything of the old country stands stronger than just saying some silly words. I love my adopted country, despite its flaws. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/63 "2015-10-20T14:09:51Z")
Its fairly common in the clubs I belong to to have the Pledge and sometimes some sort of silence or prayer at the start of every meeting. I will stand and recite the Pledge although I do have some personal issues with the whole thing about flags. I keep hoping we’ll outgrow the whole thing but I don’t realistically see it happening. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/64 "2015-10-20T14:13:26Z")
I am familiar with the language; heard it spoken just the other day. It was a moving thing, evidently to everyone present. Including the functionaries who I suppose had seen the ceremony many times. The words are supposed to mean the actions, of course. Are you not a woman of your word? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/65 "2015-10-20T14:16:38Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I am familiar with the language; heard it spoken just the other day. It was a moving thing, evidently to everyone present. Including the functionaries who I suppose had seen the ceremony many times. > > The words are supposed to mean the actions, of course. Are you not a woman of your word? I’d guess the words were meant when they were spoken, a one-team meaningful ceremony as opposed to repetitious recitation on demand done solely to conform to societal expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/66 "2015-10-20T14:18:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’d guess the words were meant when they were spoken, a one-team meaningful ceremony as opposed to repetitious recitation on demand done solely to conform to societal expectations. Thank you. Plus, I was eight years old when I took the oath. Regardless, I meant it. I see no reason to repeat it daily. Anyway, when did I say I was not a woman of my word? I do pledge allegiance to our country. I don’t need some fancy words to do so, I live it every single day. Is it really so hard to understand the difference? When I came to the age of majority I certainly had a choice. I could have returned to India. Having been born there, I could have gone back. I chose this country and this life. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/67 "2015-10-20T14:23:45Z")
Just curious, do other countries have something like the PoA? In Switzerland there is no such pledge, and the only time we use the national anthem is once a year on the Swiss national day. And no one, and I mean no one, knows any of the words after the first line 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/68 "2015-10-20T14:50:59Z")
**Orville mogul** , my understanding is that most European (and Australia and New Zealand) don’t have anything like the PoA, and that people from those countries find our county’s obsession with patriotism weird and slightly off-putting. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/69 "2015-10-20T14:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Flyer > > It is the duty of every person living in this country, citizen or not, to defend and protect it by any means necessary. The Pledge is merely a small token of that. While I’m not sure I agree with this “duty” you describe, I would certainly defend and protect this country if necessary. I like it here and have no desire to live anywhere else. Freedom is a great thing. I disagree completely that the Pledge is a “small token” of what is great about the United States or our obligation to keep it as great as possible. To me, a public pledge of loyalty goes against everything I admire about our country. The god part sure makes it worse, but the whole thing offends me. ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_Urquhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@Gordon\_Urquhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_Urquhart)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/70 "2015-10-20T15:17:15Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > It’s funny that so many people here have an issue with the Under God part. I am not terribly religious, but that is the only part that seems like it could be worth of pledging allegiance to. > > To a country? I agree with another poster that that seems a bit fascist. To a flag? That’s just silly. > > Actually the whole thing comes across as a [granfalloon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon). As someone who says the pledge but omits the “under God,” I’ll respond: First off, I’m an atheist. Gods don’t exist, so mentioning a god at all seems every kind of pointless to me. To your question about allegiance to a country [“to the republic, for which (the flag) stands”], yes, I suppose I am professing my allegiance to the United States. It’s not a perfect place by any means, but in my experience it’s got more going for it than not, and I don’t see myself being any happier living anywhere else. I don’t see fascism or jingoism in it at all – I know that other countries are better at doing some things than we are. In professing allegiance to the United States, I’m saying (at least in my view) that I’ll do whatever I can, within reason, to keep it a Pretty Good Place to Be: contribute to society in a positive manner, support our military, question authority when needed. I’ve got your back, US of A. Certainly none of those activities makes me any different than, say, a German or a Finn professing allegiance to her country (in whatever manner) and doing the same activities, but I’ve chosen to live here and reciting the pledge is a way of reminding myself that it’s partially on me to keep it a Pretty Good Place to Be. I don’t have a problem at all with people not standing during the pledge, or standing and not saying anything, or standing and reciting a recipe for sugar cookies instead – that freedom to do whatever they want is just one of the things that makes the United States a Pretty Good Place to Be. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/71 "2015-10-20T17:01:42Z")
[quote=“Flyer, post:37, topic:735165”] If you have never seen Red Skelton explicate the Pledge of Allegiance, you should. He dropped the humor for a few minutes, and in those few minutes, he gave this country a great gift. [/QUOTE] Skelton’s explication is what led me to take a good long look at the PoA, and decide that if I wished to take its meaning seriously, I should stop reciting it. Pledging is a pretty solemn undertaking; it should not be done lightly. And if one is making a habit of it, one’s pledge isn’t really worth much. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/72 "2015-10-20T17:28:15Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I truly, honestly, cannot understand why anybody who likes living in this country would have any objection whatsoever to saying it. That includes religious objections, too. If you don’t like the Pledge, then why are you living here? I was born here and it’s as good a place as any. But it’s just a place to live. My only faithfulness is to God. I wouldn’t pledge allegiance to an entity that might expect me to betray that faithfulness, to wit: > [@Flyer](#): > > It is the **duty** of every person living in this country, citizen or not, to defend and protect it by any means necessary. The Pledge is merely a small token of that. I have never been in the military, but the Motto at West Point explains very clearly and succinctly what every single person should strive to live for. > > **“DUTY – HONOR – COUNTRY”** > > Those words should resonate like a solemn drumbeat in every American’s mind, for all time. They are inextricably linked, both to each other, and to the American Ideal. This is insane. It is not my duty to defend and protect this country, especially by any means necessary. Particularly if many of those means go against what I believe is moral, again, in faithfulness to God. I can’t imagine having those words resounding in my head – it would be like having to watch military porn 24 hours a day. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/73 "2015-10-20T17:46:17Z")
I don’t feel that I’m obligated as a US citizen to recite the pledge on command, or to show respect for the flag or the other symbols of this nation. I _choose_ to do so because I believe in the values that those symbols represent, and because I hope that our country will progressively get better and better at living up to them. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/74 "2015-10-20T17:46:27Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > It’s funny that so many people here have an issue with the Under God part. I am not terribly religious, but that is the only part that seems like it could be worth of pledging allegiance to. > > To a country? I agree with another poster that that seems a bit fascist. To a flag? That’s just silly. > > Actually the whole thing comes across as a [granfalloon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon). I’ll respond, too. Pledging to the flag is silly, but pledging to the nation is real, and is something I am willing to do. (And in so far as the flag represents the nation, that part doesn’t bother me.) This is my nation. I was born here, I choose to stay here. This country has been good to me, it is my home, and the home of most people I care about. And it’s a pretty good nation. Part of what I pledge is to try to keep it a pretty good nation. One of the things I like about the US is the separation of church and state, though. As a Jew, I am very grateful for the religious freedom this nation offers. And the “under God” part directly conflicts with that separation. I’ve never liked it. And as an adult, I don’t say it. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/75 "2015-10-20T18:17:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t feel that I’m obligated as a US citizen to recite the pledge on command, or to show respect for the flag or the other symbols of this nation. > > I _choose_ to do so because I believe in the values that those symbols represent, and because I hope that our country will progressively get better and better at living up to them. In fact, the American ideal I most respect is the fact it doesn’t demand such oaths and respects from its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/76 "2015-10-20T18:44:52Z")
> [@Orville\_mogul](#): > > Just curious, do other countries have something like the PoA? > > In Switzerland there is no such pledge, and the only time we use the national anthem is once a year on the Swiss national day. And no one, and I mean no one, knows any of the words after the first line 🙂 And you all have a rifle in the home there and have been in some bit of training and by association are willing to defend your country… right? Or are you going to run & hide, hide your sons so they will never hear of patriotism and so will never be in harms way? I don’t think so. But those on this thread have no intention of defending this country of freedom they abuse from enemies as they don’t believe in that, just taking the good stuff or just moving along to the next place that gives them stuff for free. I don’t much care about the actual pledge or anthem but the attitude just screams that they are proud of their contempt for the country and all those that suffered & died to make it so. They will never do anything that will preserve the country if there is any risk to themselves… And are proud of it. _::: shake head and wanders away :::::_ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/77 "2015-10-20T19:03:11Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > I don’t much care about the actual pledge or anthem but the attitude just screams that they are proud of their contempt for the country and all those that suffered & died to make it so. > > They will never do anything that will preserve the country if there is any risk to themselves… And are proud of it. > > _::: shake head and wanders away :::::_ Oh piffle. I attempted to preserve the nation by not voting for warmongering stooges who sent our men and women into meat grinders in Iraq and Afghanistan. That’s a hell of a lot more patriotic than getting your panties in a twist over who doesn’t want to recite the words that you want to on demand. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/78 "2015-10-20T19:05:16Z")
Every week during our Toastmasters meetings. For me it’s rote, so I am hardly thinking of what I’m saying while I recite it. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/79 "2015-10-20T19:16:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh piffle. I attempted to preserve the nation by not voting for warmongering stooges who sent our men and women into meat grinders in Iraq and Afghanistan. That’s a hell of a lot more patriotic than getting your panties in a twist over who doesn’t want to recite the words that you want to on demand. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by GusNSpot View Post > I don’t much care about the actual pledge or anthem … :: snip ::: ↑ ↑ ↑ Didn’t read this part did ya? Bawahahaha A non action is more important than an action. That is the extent of your willingness to help protect this place of freedom? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165/80 "2015-10-20T19:18:20Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > ↑ ↑ ↑ Didn’t read this part did ya? > > Bawahahaha A non action is more important than an action. > > That is the extent of your willingness to help protect this place of freedom? :rolleyes: Yeah, I saw that and I commend your lack of attachment to the POA. But I think it’s more patriotic to vote against the warmongers than it is to enable them by enlisting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-stand-during-the-pledge-of-allegiance/735165.md?page=5)