# Do you still consider Edward Snowden a hero now that we know he's disclosed secret and LEGAL info? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236 "2014-01-20T00:29:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/181 "2014-01-24T00:17:11Z")
Are you drunk? You want them all to come over and form a ring around the Sears Tower or something? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/182 "2014-01-24T00:27:09Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > That’s great, but those were in those regions. Yeah, well, stories of Saudi Arabian police arresting suspects in the United States are surprisingly hard to come by. I’m not sure why that might be. > [@](#): > > They also never had to watch 3000 people die on national television. [Here’s a map of terrorist attacks with more than 100 victims since the beginning of the 20th century.](http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/globalterrorism1.html) There are, by my count, about 28 of them in the Middle East. So, yeah, I think they’re familiar with the experience. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/183 "2014-01-24T00:33:30Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > they’ve done NOTHING to prevent those who ARE terrorists from carrying out attacks. False, completely false, demonstrably false, and just plain, yanno, _false_. > [@](#): > > The problem with the Cheney analogy: Iraq was not behind 9/11. If we had kept our eyes on Afghanistan, that country, and us, would be a whole lot better off. Are you aware that _Afghanistan_ was not “behind 9/11” either? Yanno, it’s been fun, I suppose, but you are quite clearly not here to have a discussion, my friend. I’ll let someone else try to elicit a meaningful response from you. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/184 "2014-01-24T00:34:13Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > andros-Once you answer this question, we’ll just have to vehemently agree to disagree: > > Where were you on 9/11/2001? I’ve said where I was. Where were you? In one of the buildings? You seem more traumatized by the events on that day than the people I work with who were directly across the street from the WTC. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/185 "2014-01-24T00:35:43Z")
As the OP’er, I have been as guilty as anyone in straying off topic in this thread. Can we get back on track and focus on one aspect of what Snowden has done? Specifically, was he justified in revealing information about NSA’s foreign intelligence activities (which were/are secret and legal)? I think that he was not at all justified in doing so and, in fact, should be prosecuted for his crimes in that regard (should the occasion ever arise where he can be held accountable). Please do not conflate his revelations concerning NSA’s domestic surveillance activities with those pertaining their foreign operations. Even if you think he was justified in ‘exposing’ the former, what business did he have in disseminating information about the latter? Again, I think he had none. I think his actions with respect to foreign intelligence gathering were either ‘collateral damage’ that he couldn’t care less about, or he deliberately leaked them in order to (in his mind) cast the NSA in a less than glowing light. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/186 "2014-01-24T00:46:55Z")
I suppose if you feel that people living in our ally nations occupy some lesser rung of the evolutionary ladder or something. Also, revealing international spying on our allies makes those allies slightly less likely to grab him and turn him over to the US for brownie points. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/187 "2014-01-24T00:51:58Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > As the OP’er, I have been as guilty as anyone in straying off topic in this thread. > > Can we get back on track and focus on one aspect of what Snowden has done? > > Specifically, was he justified in revealing information about NSA’s foreign intelligence activities (which were/are secret and legal)? > > I think that he was not at all justified in doing so and, in fact, should be prosecuted for his crimes in that regard (should the occasion ever arise where he can be held accountable). > > Please do not conflate his revelations concerning NSA’s domestic surveillance activities with those pertaining their foreign operations. Even if you think he was justified in ‘exposing’ the former, what business did he have in disseminating information about the latter? Again, I think he had none. I think his actions with respect to foreign intelligence gathering were either ‘collateral damage’ that he couldn’t care less about, or he deliberately leaked them in order to (in his mind) cast the NSA in a less than glowing light. Did he actually do the leaking himself, or did he give the information over to the guy from the Guardian to determine what should be and what shouldn’t be leaked? Anyway, I’m not fully aware of all of the foreign operations that he revealed. I think revealing that the NSA monitored Merkel’s phone was a good thing to leak – we really shouldn’t be monitoring our allies. Revealing the no-wifi hacking trick was a bad leak. Where would you put the weakening of the random number generator thing that the NSA did – domestic or international? It was good that he leaked that. What other international things did I miss? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/188 "2014-01-24T01:36:22Z")
**levdrakon** and **RitterSport** : I don’t know the extent of his foreign intelligence activities leaks. But even leaking info about the QUANTUM program alone (see links in my OP) is inexcusable. Why was there a need to divulge legal and secret operations? You say that the US (and presumably all other nations) has (have) no right to spy on others (i.e. in your little screed about “lesser rung of the evolutionary ladder or something”). That mode of thinking, and the intelligence-gathering passivity it reflects, is a recipe for disaster. Well, for surprise, then disaster. Do you really think that the US is alone in its foreign intelligence activities? Would you rather it take some passive moral high ground while other nations, its enemies, merrily spy on it? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/189 "2014-01-24T02:06:01Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > **levdrakon** and **RitterSport** : I don’t know the extent of his foreign intelligence activities leaks. But even leaking info about the QUANTUM program alone (see links in my OP) is inexcusable. Why was there a need to divulge legal and secret operations? No, there wasn’t. Are you asking me whether that negates all the good he did (in my mind)? In my opinion, no, that disclosure does not negate all the good disclosure and, in balance, he has done much more good than harm. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/190 "2014-01-24T02:29:56Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > When we decide the government is being to aggressive doing its job protecting us, the mushroom cloud or collapsed building is on them. …What? This is barely coherent, and it’s contrary to the facts and good sense anyway. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > Specifically, was he justified in revealing information about NSA’s foreign intelligence activities (which were/are secret and legal)? But some of the domestic activity was also legal - at least insofar as the FISA courts rubber-stamped it. There’s always room for debate on how we want the government to act in our names. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/191 "2014-01-24T02:33:18Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > **levdrakon** and **RitterSport** : I don’t know the extent of his foreign intelligence activities leaks. But even leaking info about the QUANTUM program alone (see links in my OP) is inexcusable. Why was there a need to divulge legal and secret operations? > > You say that the US (and presumably all other nations) has (have) no right to spy on others (i.e. in your little screed about “lesser rung of the evolutionary ladder or something”). That mode of thinking, and the intelligence-gathering passivity it reflects, is a recipe for disaster. Well, for surprise, then disaster. Do you really think that the US is alone in its foreign intelligence activities? Would you rather it take some passive moral high ground while other nations, its enemies, merrily spy on it? Seriously? I never said we have no right to spy on others. Fire up Google and analyse other country’s economies and politics. Knock yourself out. Everyone does. Snowden hasn’t revealed anything I couldn’t have told you 30 years ago, except acknowledging yeah, we really are doing it. That’s apparently news to people like **etv78** , not the world’s governments and terrorist orgs. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/192 "2014-01-24T02:34:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I never said we have no right to spy on others. And Snowden said the same today. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/193 "2014-01-24T03:10:25Z")
The “shut up, the government doesn’t care about your stupid emails” question can also be turned on its head: if most of our online activity is mundane and has no intelligence value, why does the government need to collect and sift through it all? The NSA and these other agencies have much more precise tools at their disposal, so let them use those. There is no evidence they are getting anything of value from these mass violations of everybody’s privacy. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/194 "2014-01-24T04:15:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I suppose if you feel that people living in our ally nations occupy some lesser rung of the evolutionary ladder or something. > > Also, revealing international spying on our allies makes those allies slightly less likely to grab him and turn him over to the US for brownie points. Those people have a government whose responsible for protecting them. And yeah, the reason we attacked Afghanistan is because they were impotent to control the people within their borders. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/195 "2014-01-24T05:18:55Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Yog-Dead people don’t need civil liberties. Tell that to the prosecutor of my necrophilia case! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/196 "2014-01-24T08:36:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The “shut up, the government doesn’t care about your stupid emails” question can also be turned on its head: if most of our online activity is mundane and has no intelligence value, why does the government need to collect and sift through it all? The NSA and these other agencies have much more precise tools at their disposal, so let them use those. There is no evidence they are getting anything of value from these mass violations of everybody’s privacy. Because you can’t copy an email after it’s been deleted. Archiving everything now means you can go back and look at it later if you need to. And at least [according to Google](http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/15/google-says-email-users-have-no-legitimate-expectation-of-privacy/), there’s no expectation of privacy in email correspondence, so there’s no violation of privacy occurring. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/197 "2014-01-24T09:18:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And at least [according to Google](http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/15/google-says-email-users-have-no-legitimate-expectation-of-privacy/), there’s no expectation of privacy in email correspondence, so there’s no violation of privacy occurring. Google is the moral and legal authority that gets to decide when we should have an expectation of privacy now, is it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/198 "2014-01-24T09:29:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And at least [according to Google](http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/15/google-says-email-users-have-no-legitimate-expectation-of-privacy/), there’s no expectation of privacy in email correspondence, so there’s no violation of privacy occurring. Uh huh. And I suppose when a car thief tells you that they have a legitimate right to steal your car, you take their word for it too? And before you say something retarded, no, this is not like Snowden. You are insinuating that Google’s position is correct for no other reason than because Google is making it. We agree with Snowden based on the content of his argument, not because he’s some former computer specialist we had never heard of before. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/199 "2014-01-24T11:51:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because you can’t copy an email after it’s been deleted. Geez, even your hero (judging from your general attitude on these issues) Ollie North found out otherwise. > [@](#): > > Archiving everything now means you can go back and look at it later if you need to. What they need to do is look at actual relevant information from actual suspicious targets, and focus on those to the exclusion of shiny-object distractions. The [results](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings) of the current policy of drowning signals in noise are on your head. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/200 "2014-01-24T12:20:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Geez, even your hero (judging from your general attitude on these issues) Ollie North found out otherwise. No, Oliver North was a criminal, much like Edward Snowden. > [@](#): > > What they need to do is look at actual relevant information from actual suspicious targets, and focus on those to the exclusion of shiny-object distractions. The [results](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings) of the current policy of drowning signals in noise are on your head. They caught the guys who did it, didn’t they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236.md?page=11)