# Do you still consider Edward Snowden a hero now that we know he's disclosed secret and LEGAL info? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236 "2014-01-20T00:29:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/141 "2014-01-23T15:32:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > the government admits that bulk metadata collection hasn’t disrupted any terrorist plots, and there was a terrorist attack on U.S. soil just last year despite all of the stuff Snowden disclosed Actually, it’s more probable that there was a terrorist attack on the US _because of_ the government’s mass surveillance practices. The government received a specific warning which was ignored. The only credible explanations are 1)a conspiracy theory that posits that the attack was allowed to happen on purpose or 2)a bureaucratic snafu theory that posits that the signal got lost in the noise. Clearly, the latter is a more reasonable explanation, and suggests an obvious corrective (reduce the volume of background noise). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/142 "2014-01-23T15:41:58Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, ya came to the right place. Your ignorance will now beg (in vain) for mercy as it gets [fought into oblivion](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/us/politics/watchdog-report-says-nsa-program-is-illegal-and-should-end.html?hp&_r=0): The OP’s point is that Snowden revealed a whole host of information that had nothing to do with this criticism of that particular program. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/143 "2014-01-23T15:47:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The OP’s point is that Snowden revealed a whole host of information that had nothing to do with this criticism of that particular program. So, the OP’s point is that data-delving needs to be tailored with surgical precision, excluding any perfectly-legal nothing-to-hide stuff that might accidentally accompany the few bits of misconduct? Hokay… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/144 "2014-01-23T16:09:09Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > So, the OP’s point is that data-delving needs to be tailored with surgical precision, excluding any perfectly-legal nothing-to-hide stuff that might accidentally accompany the few bits of misconduct? Hokay… Why don’t you just read the OP again? I think the point is perfectly clear. For example, let’s say I worked at KFC, and I alleged that the company discriminates against minorities. I take some confidential documents and give them to the press that purport to support my case (but actually may in fact not). Do you think I would also be justified in revealing the secret blend of twelve herbs and spices that makes KFC chicken so yummy? Does it require “surgical precision” to determine that stealing the secret recipe has nothing to do with my allegation of discrimination? The OP is in essence saying that Snowden stole the secret recipe and publicized it, when the secret recipe has nothing to do with protecting the rights of people. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/145 "2014-01-23T16:21:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why don’t you just read the OP again? I think the point is perfectly clear. > > For example, let’s say I worked at KFC, and I alleged that the company discriminates against minorities. I take some confidential documents and give them to the press that purport to support my case (but actually may in fact not). Do you think I would also be justified in revealing the secret blend of twelve herbs and spices that makes KFC chicken so yummy? Does it require “surgical precision” to determine that stealing the secret recipe has nothing to do with my allegation of discrimination? > > The OP is in essence saying that Snowden stole the secret recipe and publicized it, when the secret recipe has nothing to do with protecting the rights of people. As the OP’er, I think that is a neat and accurate analogy of the issue I was getting at. If Snowden, or anyone else, believes the NSA is spying domestically (and illegally), of what relevance is it if they also spy on China’s troop deployments? Why did Snowden compromise foreign operations when his avowed concern (and that of many other citizens) ostensibly had to do with _domestic_ surveillance? As I said way upthread: it’s because he’s an idiot or an asshole (and maybe a traitor) who didn’t care what he divulged so long as it painted the NSA in what he thought would be a bad light. Looks like he was right about that, too. A lot of people (including some in this very thread) seem to agree that spying on, say, China is reprehensible and proves that the NSA can’t be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/146 "2014-01-23T16:51:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Good to know that my life and the lives of thousands of others are less important than your vague need to feel assured that the government can’t see the pictures of your family vacation you emailed to grandma. Gee I would hate to see that happen, I hope whoever you responded to sees the error of his ways. I do sincerely hope that when you next post, you actually respond to what I wrote instead of creating such a dishonest strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/147 "2014-01-23T17:40:06Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Are you seriously saying that the US government frames its own citizens? Are you seriously denying that the US government (or agents thereof) have ever framed its own citizens? :dubious: > **[DEA Agent Lee Lucas indicted on perjury, civil rights charges; pleads not guilty](https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2009/05/dea_agent_lee_lucas_indicted_o.html)** > > Lee Lucas, a 19-year veteran, was charged in U.S. District Court in Cleveland with perjury, making false statements, and violating a person's civil rights involving a case that resulted in 26 arrests in Mansfield. (10 second Google shoots down your incredulousness, which means you may want to re-evaluate your beliefs) ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/148 "2014-01-23T18:33:36Z")
Steve- Do you actually believe LO follows every shingle lead in a case, or do they only follow ones with plausible links? The NSA listening to us is no different. So yeah, if you aren’t doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. Is it really that hard to NOT do illegal stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/149 "2014-01-23T18:54:08Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Steve- Do you actually believe LO follows every shingle lead in a case, or do they only follow ones with plausible links? The NSA listening to us is no different. So yeah, if you aren’t doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. > > Is it really that hard to NOT do illegal stuff? Yep, totally, nothing to worry about! Unless, of course, the government decides it wants to do whatever it wants and decides that you would be a convenient scapegoat for something, like framing innocent people in pursuit of the government’s agenda. > **[Four Men Exonerated](http://justicedenied.org/fourmen.htm)** > > Justice: Denied The Magazine For The Wrongly Convicted is a magazine > published monthly dedicated to bringing you the stories of innocents who have > been wrongly convicted in America ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/150 "2014-01-23T19:05:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Honestly, on this issue, I don’t. What makes it an “untenable” argument? What does a perfectly sane, educated, and rational person need to hide from the government? I know lots of perfectly sane, educated, and rational people who spent a good portion of their lives terrified that someone would reveal that they’d been engaging in perfectly legal activities. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/151 "2014-01-23T19:11:09Z")
[A government advisory panel says the bulk collection of metadata should be stopped because it has “minimal value” and is probably illegal.](http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/23/22415176-advisory-panel-says-nsa-surveillance-program-should-be-ended?lite) Clearly these people are all traitors. > [@etv78](#): > > Oh, all he did was reveal the methods we are using to protect ourselves for people bent on our destruction, no biggie. Not even close. He revealed some methods, most of which the government eventually admitted have not prevented any attacks. Jeez. > [@etv78](#): > > Walrus-What would you tell the families of the victims off the next attack? What would you tell families of the victims of the last one? With all of this data collection in place, they still died. > [@](#): > > Yog-Dead people don’t need civil liberties. Live people do. They’re being violated. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/152 "2014-01-23T19:23:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [A government advisory panel says the bulk collection of metadata should be stopped because it has “minimal value” and is probably illegal.](http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/23/22415176-advisory-panel-says-nsa-surveillance-program-should-be-ended?lite) Clearly these people are all traitors. > > Not even close. He revealed some methods, most of which the government eventually admitted have not prevented any attacks. Jeez. Do you believe that everything Snowden has released to the media somehow pertains to the constitutional rights of American citizens? So if I flip through the newspaper and pick out a random leak he is responsible for, you will be able to tell me what it has to do with the protection of Americans’ constitutional liberties? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/153 "2014-01-23T19:32:09Z")
I see **Steve MB** referred to that finding upthread. Sorry. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you believe that everything Snowden has released to the media somehow pertains to the constitutional rights of American citizens? No, because I don’t know the ins and outs of everything he’s disclosed. But the broad strokes do. And some of the other major disclosures, like the depth of spying on friendly nations, are significant for different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/154 "2014-01-23T20:40:59Z")
Marley-I agree completely that LIVING people have rights, and the government has an obligation to do whatever it takes to keep them alive. It amazes me people are so blind to the danger out there to our way of life. Once again, I ask,"If you are not doing things to put you on the NSA’s radar, what exactly are you worried about? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/155 "2014-01-23T20:50:39Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Marley-I agree completely that LIVING people have rights, and the government has an obligation to do whatever it takes to keep them alive. Oh, so “the ends justify the means”, is that right? > [@](#): > > It amazes me people are so blind to the danger out there to our way of life. You mean like the NSA trampling on constitutionally protected rights? > [@](#): > > Once again, I ask,"If you are not doing things to put you on the NSA’s radar, what exactly are you worried about? Once again, I respond (that you ignored), "Yep, totally, nothing to worry about! Unless, of course, the government decides it wants to do whatever it wants and decides that you would be a convenient scapegoat for something, like framing innocent people in pursuit of the government’s agenda. [Four Men Exonerated](http://justicedenied.org/fourmen.htm)" ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/156 "2014-01-23T20:56:19Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > the government has an obligation to do whatever it takes to keep them alive. No, it doesn’t. It does have obligations, but there are limits to them. The Constitution is a series of limits on the government, and it can’t just be ignored. > [@](#): > > Once again, I ask,"If you are not doing things to put you on the NSA’s radar, what exactly are you worried about? I’m worried about people who say “the government should do whatever it takes” without thinking about the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/157 "2014-01-23T21:02:32Z")
When we decide the government is being to aggressive doing its job protecting us, the mushroom cloud or collapsed building is on them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/158 "2014-01-23T21:02:41Z")
Yes, Edward Snowden is a hero, who has blown the whistle on illegal activities by the NSA at great cost to himself. He deserved a ticker tape parade should he returns to the US, not jail time. If I were president, I would make him head of the NSA. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/159 "2014-01-23T21:25:27Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Marley-I agree completely that LIVING people have rights, and the government has an obligation to do whatever it takes to keep them alive. It amazes me people are so blind to the danger out there to our way of life. Once again, I ask,"If you are not doing things to put you on the NSA’s radar, what exactly are you worried about? Would you kindly explain what you consider the American “way of life,” and specifically why you believe it is at risk? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236/160 "2014-01-23T21:30:19Z")
The American way of life: Liberty, Freedom, Capitalism. You seriously don’t understand why it’s in danger, for real!? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-consider-edward-snowden-a-hero-now-that-we-know-hes-disclosed-secret-and-legal-info/679236.md?page=9)