# Do You Still Have Hope For the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575 "2017-12-04T20:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/41 "2017-12-05T01:22:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > This red state/blue state nonsense is the stupidest meme to infest the boards. You do know that each state is not a homogeneous hive mind don’t you? In some houses people disagree politically! Yet you think that a state can be characterized so simply? Urban vs. rural divide is more accurate than blue state vs. red state. Blue states like California are blue in the urban areas and red in the rural areas. Red states like Alabama are blue in the urban areas and red in the rural areas. Purple states like Virginia are blue in the urban areas and red in the rural areas. But it doesn’t change the argument. The statement ‘I wish white rural America would stop dragging down civilized urban America’ is just as accurate and true. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/42 "2017-12-05T01:32:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > This red state/blue state nonsense is the stupidest meme to infest the boards. You do know that each state is not a homogeneous hive mind don’t you? In some houses people disagree politically! Yet you think that a state can be characterized so simply? You missed his point entirely, you half-witted troll. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/43 "2017-12-05T01:44:14Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Yeah, you can disagree, but it’s not a good sign when Trump voters outnumber everyone else, no? I have more sympathy for purple states. Red? Not at all. Especially states that are consistently on the wrong side of history. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > You missed his point entirely, you half-witted troll. You simple fools are a large part of the hyper partisan state that the nation is currently experiencing. You, Morgenstern, also deliberately stirred the pot with the Russian sponsored California secession nonsense. That makes you the de-facto troll. Half-witted or not. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Urban vs. rural divide is more accurate than blue state vs. red state. Blue states like California are blue in the urban areas and red in the rural areas. Red states like Alabama are blue in the urban areas and red in the rural areas. Purple states like Virginia are blue in the urban areas and red in the rural areas. > > But it doesn’t change the argument. The statement ‘I wish white rural America would stop dragging down civilized urban America’ is just as accurate and true. White rural? Again with the race based attacks? It’s not even rural vs urban. You honestly think 100% of a city or a farming community votes one party? This isn’t the USSR. Even in cities you have splits between the parties. And if the “blues” are that much more civilized and intelligent how the hell did they lose to Trump? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/44 "2017-12-05T01:50:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > **You simple fools are a large part of the hyper partisan state that the nation is currently experiencing**. You, Morgenstern, also deliberately stirred the pot with the Russian sponsored California secession nonsense. That makes you the de-facto troll. Half-witted or not. > > White rural? Again with the race based attacks? > > It’s not even rural vs urban. You honestly think 100% of a city or a farming community votes one party? This isn’t the USSR. Even in cities you have splits between the parties.\*\* And if the “blues” are that much more civilized and intelligent how the hell did they lose to Trump?\*\* And which party blocked everything Obama tried to do out of partisan spite? Even to the extent of going against Republican proposals and bills? Because there were enough morons in the right place to elect trump. Remember, he did lose the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/45 "2017-12-05T01:52:50Z")
They lost because of the ass-backward electoral college. There’s no way in hell states like Wyoming should have as much power as they have in elections when the fifth largest city in California has more than the entire state. But yes, it’s liberals who are responsible for the hyper-partisan nature of the country. The “not the party of no, but hell no” had nothing to do with it. Not the fact that Republicans were against Obama intervention but magically were for it with Trump in charge. Or the Who said it was a race-based attack? White rural people vote overwhelmingly Republican. As do white evangelicals. African-Americans note overwhelmingly Democrat. It’s not made up. But I’ll add some nuance for you. I’m tired of Republicans preventing us from being civilized. Better? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/46 "2017-12-05T01:59:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You simple fools are a large part of the hyper partisan state that the nation is currently experiencing. You, Morgenstern, also deliberately stirred the pot with the Russian sponsored California secession nonsense. That makes you the de-facto troll. Half-witted or not. I wouldn’t expect someone who thinks Trump farts glitter to understand anything more difficult than finding water in a river. You don’t disappoint, you hapless troll. Now, get out and let the nurses lock the dayroom computer. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/47 "2017-12-05T02:01:40Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The last time I had a glimmer of hope for electoral politics was Obama, but then he surrounded himself with bankers and led an all out assault on American homeowners, so that didn’t last too long. I’m not sure what your referring to here, but whatever policy differences you might have had with President Obama, I doubt it’s accurate to call it “an all out assault on American homeowners.” I certainly didn’t feel assaulted, but what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/48 "2017-12-05T02:04:32Z")
**All Things Must Pass** In 200 Million years, little note, nor long regard will be given to this planet. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/49 "2017-12-05T02:09:05Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Yes. > It ain’t over. > The country that has more privately-owned small arms than many armies have–that country is not in a Civil War. > There’s hope. Hope for what, exactly? Guerrilla warfare? Slaughter of civilians by strafing? You have damn strange hopes. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/50 "2017-12-05T02:35:57Z")
How about a swap out with Canada? We give you our right wing true believers, (yes, I’m aware they pale in comparison to your lot, but they just need encouragement I’m sure!) In exchange you let your most troublesome liberal states secede and join our confederation. A strip down each coast ought to do it, NY, MASS, Washington State, California. (Ok, so I missed a few, but you get the idea!) I should think a few more years of Trump and they’ll be ready to join our Socialist Gulag willingly. Besides if it comes to armed conflict in the streets, I gotta believe a fair number of Democrats are going to want to immigrate/ seek refugee status in the Northland. My idea just says a lot of mess for everyone. Y’all get rid of those pesky Democrats, and they get an extremely similar, yet less gun riddled, kinder, gentler future. Plus great healthcare. The rabid Republican dream is realized without opposition, the Democrats find a safe space. It’s a win/win to my mind. I’m just saying, it could save a LOT of conflict, end the divide, and avoid possibly open conflict. Just consider it, that’s all! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/51 "2017-12-05T02:37:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > White rural? Again with the race based attacks? > > It’s not even rural vs urban. You honestly think 100% of a city or a farming community votes one party? This isn’t the USSR. Even in cities you have splits between the parties. And if the “blues” are that much more civilized and intelligent how the hell did they lose to Trump? Why do you insist these are race based attacks. These are statements of facts. Aren’t those of you on the right always complaining when the left says ‘thats racist’ to shut down an argument? You’re doing the same thing. Here is a map of the 2016 election by county that also has county size. > **[2016 United States presidential election in Alabama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Alabama,_2016#/media/File:United_States_presidential_election_in_Alabama,_2016.svg)** > > Trump > Clinton The biggest counties are either blue or only mildly red. The small counties are deeper red. However there are a few small counties that are blue. Why are they blue? Because they are non-white. Bullock county - 70% black Greene county - 81% black Macon county - 83% black Perrry county - 69% black etc So I stand by my statement. Counties that represent large cities tend to be blue (they aren’t guaranteed to be blue, but they tend to be). Smaller rural counties are red, unless they are minority-majority. In that case, they are blue. Hence my statement earlier. ‘Rural white America’. Urban areas aren’t the problem. Rural areas full of blacks, latinos, native americans, etc. aren’t the problem. Rural white areas are the deep red part of America. The counties won by Hillary Clinton make up 64% of GDP. The Trump counties make up 36% of GDP. The fact that Trump won 5x more counties isn’t really relevant. Hillary won more votes and far more of the economy. > **[Another Clinton-Trump divide: High-output America vs low-output America |...](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/another-clinton-trump-divide-high-output-america-vs-low-output-america/)** > > While looking at number of influences on the presidential vote outcome, we found that in a year of massive divides, one particular economic split stands out. With few exceptions Clinton won every large-sized county economy in the country. I don’t have the stats, but I’ve heard 80-90% of patents, innovations, etc. start in large urban areas. Virtually all of our colleges and universities are in urban or blue areas. So yes. In America you have highly productive urban areas that make up the bulk of America’s economy, culture, innovations, etc. being held back by rural white areas who keep voting based on bigotry, tribalism and superstition. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/52 "2017-12-05T02:44:41Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > How about a swap out with Canada? We give you our right wing true believers, (yes, I’m aware they pale in comparison to your lot, but they just need encouragement I’m sure!) In exchange you let your most troublesome liberal states secede and join our confederation. A strip down each coast ought to do it, NY, MASS, Washington State, California. (Ok, so I missed a few, but you get the idea!) > > I should think a few more years of Trump and they’ll be ready to join our Socialist Gulag willingly. Besides if it comes to armed conflict in the streets, I gotta believe a fair number of Democrats are going to want to immigrate/ seek refugee status in the Northland. My idea just says a lot of mess for everyone. > > Y’all get rid of those pesky Democrats, and they get an extremely similar, yet less gun riddled, kinder, gentler future. Plus great healthcare. > > The rabid Republican dream is realized without opposition, the Democrats find a safe space. It’s a win/win to my mind. > > I’m just saying, it could save a LOT of conflict, end the divide, and avoid possibly open conflict. > > Just consider it, that’s all! Before I agree to this: how do your cops feel about murdering unarmed black people? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/53 "2017-12-05T02:47:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not even rural vs urban. You honestly think 100% of a city or a farming community votes one party? This isn’t the USSR. Even in cities you have splits between the parties. And if the “blues” are that much more civilized and intelligent how the hell did they lose to Trump? Go away you mewling twit. Of course nothing he said implied any of that. > [@octopus](#): > > So mindset is linked to skin color now? It’s hard to believe anyone is this ignorant and naive. Mindset is linked to culture, ethnic background, and economic group, and all of those have correlations with race. (And note I said “linked to,” not “absolutely determined by.”) ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/54 "2017-12-05T02:48:13Z")
So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh? Do they grow a lot of food in the urban areas? I’m not very creative when I’m hungry. It’s so great to see that on the Dope where we are supposed to be smarter than average a thread like this reveals that all we can do is stand up and throw rocks at one another. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/55 "2017-12-05T02:49:41Z")
Can portions of Michigan come along? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/56 "2017-12-05T02:55:10Z")
It’s not that the same evils don’t exist in the True North, just on a much tinier scale is all. School shootings, gun violence, racism, misogyny, we aren’t immune after all. But the outcome is usually appropriate outrage and often positive if slow, change. (Northern Michigan and Ohio Are already practically Canadian, I should think! That would be a seamless transition! :D) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/57 "2017-12-05T02:55:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because I’m not being hysterical? This board is sad when it comes to assessing current reality in a historical context. Current reality is that the POTUS hates America. And a vocal minority of American citizens, in possession of a significant amount of political power, are just fine with that. Can you help me out with some historical context for assessing that? N.B. The circumstances described in paragraph 1, above, are not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/58 "2017-12-05T03:10:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Current reality is that the POTUS hates America. And a vocal minority of American citizens, in possession of a significant amount of political power, are just fine with that. > > Can you help me out with some historical context for assessing that? > N.B. The circumstances described in paragraph 1, above, are not in dispute. He’s crazy and ignorant, sure, but you think Trump actually hates the USA? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/59 "2017-12-05T03:13:52Z")
He has demonstrated that he hates every single positive attribute and virtue that America aspires to on her best day. That’s a reasonable proxy for hating America. As I said, not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/60 "2017-12-05T03:15:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > He’s crazy and ignorant, sure, but you think Trump actually hates the USA? He hates that it’s not the dystopia he claims it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=4)