# Do You Still Have Hope For the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575 "2017-12-04T20:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/81 "2017-12-05T13:50:33Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Wesley’s argument doesn’t require generations to be monolithic. If you look at the demographics of 2016 voters\*, likely demographic changes and the fact that Trump barely squeaked through in many swing states, his election is analogous to the Battle of the Bulge or the Pickett’s charge of middle-aged and elderly white evangelical supremacism rather than a turning point in its favor. They’ll still have an outsized influence but they won’t be the controlling majority group anymore which is a big part of why they’re so scared and spiteful. Fair enough. The sources both you and \*\*Wesley Clark \*\*provide do show quite clearly that Trump’s support is strongest among those who can check at least three boxes among the demographics of Old, White, Cristian or Male. So the suggestion that America may be in a better place when the number of old white Christian males has shrunk to a point where they no longer have a significant influence on the politics of the nation is not unreasonable. I nevertheless maintain that the attitude of “no hope until such-and-such a group dies off” is a rather horrible approach to the current sad state of affairs. Even if I have had similar thoughts from time to time. So, as for my calling “bullshit” on **Wesley** , I shall eat my words, but I shall do so while grumbling under my breath. (Munch-munch. Grumble-grumble. Pass the salt.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/82 "2017-12-05T14:05:13Z")
The OP’s right. All hope is gone. Emigrate now, but send me your good stuff first. It’ll just weigh you down on the long journey to Hope. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/83 "2017-12-05T14:06:11Z")
America became better off when the slave owning generation died off around the early 20th century. We are better off now that the ‘Segregation now, Segregation forever’ generation died off. Say what you will, but I want to live in a society without brainwashed people who think child molestation and treason are acceptable as long as you aren’t a Democrat while you do it. When those people die off society will Improve. Granted America will always have dysfunctional people and maybe it’ll get worse, not better with time. But the most irrational, misinformed, undemocratic Americans tend to be whites over age 50. Lots of whites over 50 are good people, but that demographic makes up the bulk of Americas dysfunctional voters. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/84 "2017-12-05T14:32:48Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > …Lots of whites over 50 are good people… This old white lady thanks you for that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/85 "2017-12-05T14:39:29Z")
There seems to be something in many Americans’ psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking. Fun, if you’re part of that mindset, unbelievably frustrating if you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/86 "2017-12-05T14:45:21Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > This old white lady thanks you for that. 😉 Even among white baby boomers, the most partisan racial and age generation for Trump, 34% of them voted for Clinton. Another 4% voted third party. So you put ten white baby boomers in a room, and four did not support Trump. They aren’t all horrible people by any means. I know a lot of white people over age 50 who are very good people. I know lots of rural whites who are good people But sadly, if someone is extremely angry, misinformed, hostile to the rule of law, values partisanship over competence or criminality, etc there is a good chance they are white and over age 50. That has been my experience. I think 2/3 of the tea party were whites over age 50. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/87 "2017-12-05T14:57:29Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > So the rural areas are holding back the productive urban areas, huh? Do they grow a lot of food in the urban areas? I’m not very creative when I’m hungry. > > It’s so great to see that on the Dope where we are supposed to be smarter than average a thread like this reveals that all we can do is stand up and throw rocks at one another. Do the rural areas produce the tractors they use? Do they produce their own weather reports? Do rural areas not receive tax payer assistance in various forms of agricultural subsidies and crop insurance? I could go on, I suppose, but you get the point, the rural areas would be a bunch of subsistence farmers, were it not for the support that comes from the urban areas. Rural america would not survive without the support of those in the cities. OTOH, if all the rural land was turned over to big mega farming corps, kicking out all the small farmers, the people in the cities wouldn’t notice a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/88 "2017-12-05T15:07:29Z")
No, I don’t. Of course, I got out 12 years ago. The last straw for me was watching the bungled, half-assed governmental response to Hurricane Katrina. I’d have next to zero confidence that the government, state or federal, would respond appropriately to the next widespread upheaval or disaster. You’re on your own in America. The last 13 months have only confirmed for me the rot in the USA. As others have said here, Trump is only the symptom, not the cause, of the disease. I feel bad for my nephews who will have to grow to adulthood in that dysfunctional madhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/89 "2017-12-05T15:14:59Z")
To answer the OP: No. Just no. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/90 "2017-12-05T15:53:11Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > There seems to be something in many Americans’ psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking. > > Fun, if you’re part of that mindset, unbelievably frustrating if you’re not. Excellent summary of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/91 "2017-12-05T16:14:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > He’s crazy and ignorant, sure, but you think Trump actually hates the USA? You are so out of touch with reality. Trump is neither crazy or ignorant. Trump is a misogynic, narcissistic, lying, toxic substance who is making the world believe that the US is a misogynic, narcissistic, lying, toxic waste dump of incompetent bigoted pricks. We have a lot of letters of apology to send to the world when that asshole has a heart attack on the 8th hole of the golf course he’s probably building on all that land he released in Utah. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/92 "2017-12-05T16:30:21Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > There seems to be something in many Americans’ psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking. > > Fun, if you’re part of that mindset, unbelievably frustrating if you’re not. QFT. And I’ll add a cliche, but what we need now is love, sweet love. We’ll ALL be better off with a little compassion. There is negligible value in a “fuck them” attitude, no matter who the \*them \*is. To answer the OP, I was ok until the tax decision this weekend (while we slept). Combine this with the Citizens United decision from a few years ago, and this re-enforces my fear that corporations and the rich citizens are in control for now. Overall, I fall asleep dreaming that this will only make America stronger. I may not live to see it, but I’m hopeful. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/93 "2017-12-05T16:44:12Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > There seems to be something in many Americans’ psyche that values selfishness over altruism, tribalism over internationalism, fear over empathy and belief over rational thinking. Right, and that something is Human Nature. It’s not unique to Americans nor to the present day. Which, I think, is grounds for both pessimism and optimism. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/94 "2017-12-05T17:10:20Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > QFT. And I’ll add a cliche, but what we need now is love, sweet love. We’ll ALL be better off with a little compassion. There is negligible value in a “fuck them” attitude, no matter who the \*them \*is. The worst part is that it is not us vs them, it is really us vs us. They can’t throw a punch without breaking their own nose. Hurts me too, but we are one and the same, so anything that hurts me hurts _them_ too. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/95 "2017-12-05T17:31:45Z")
I’m not so much worried as embarrassed and full of contempt. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/96 "2017-12-05T18:00:49Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Not until the white baby boomers die off. > > Obviously not all of them are bad (lots of white baby boomers are good people), but most brainwashed, pathologically selfish right wingers are white people over age 50. > > So do I have hope? Yes, but not until the 2030s or so. By then many of the angry, brainwashed white nationalist voters will be dead and replaced by millennials and minorities. My hope is that from the 2018-2030 period the dems can win one house of congress or the presidency long enough to stop the GOP from doing too much damage. The GOP having both houses of congress and the presidency is a pretty big problem that has to be blocked. > > Not all, but enough to move the overton window. > > But I could be wrong. America is getting more and more insane with time, not less. I’m a white baby boomer, but I have to admit, far too many of them disgust me at this point. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/97 "2017-12-05T18:06:56Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > No, I don’t. Of course, I got out 12 years ago. The last straw for me was watching the bungled, half-assed governmental response to Hurricane Katrina. I’d have next to zero confidence that the government, state or federal, would respond appropriately to the next widespread upheaval or disaster. You’re on your own in America. > > The last 13 months have only confirmed for me the rot in the USA. As others have said here, Trump is only the symptom, not the cause, of the disease. I feel bad for my nephews who will have to grow to adulthood in that dysfunctional madhouse. Where’d you end up going? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/98 "2017-12-05T18:18:38Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > There is no telling what will happen long term. But I’m assuming as the most radicalized, arrogant, misinformed, protofascist voters die off and are replaced, the US’s politics will become more sane and responsible. > > I _hope_. > > As an example, take Roy Moore. > > [Fox News Poll: Jones leads Moore by 8 points in Alabama Senate race | Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/16/fox-news-poll-jones-leads-moore-by-8-points-in-alabama-senate-race.html) > > Women under 45 prefer Jones over Moore by 49 points, women over 45 prefer Jones by 11 points. Hopefully there is a generational shift and the pro-Trump, pro-Moore aspects of the GOP die of old age before they can do too much damage to America. Have you looked at your typical Trump [rally](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zRw1TS7kX2s/maxresdefault.jpg)? (Image picked at random) Most are looking under forty; gonna be a while for them to die off. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/99 "2017-12-05T18:26:47Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > No, I don’t. Of course, I got out 12 years ago. > [@RandMcnally](#): > > Where’d you end up going? Just have to say, the username and question combos here kinda cracked me up. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/100 "2017-12-05T18:31:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Yes, I realize that. Do _you_? That’s the question. Do you and other conservatives realize that? You realize that conservative, liberal etc. are poorly defined and encompass many people with conflicting views? But to answer your question, I’d reckon most self identified conservatives are pro capitalist and pro trade. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=6)