# Do You Still Have Hope For the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575 "2017-12-04T20:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/101 "2017-12-05T18:37:25Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Even among white baby boomers, the most partisan racial and age generation for Trump, 34% of them voted for Clinton. Another 4% voted third party. > > So you put ten white baby boomers in a room, and four did not support Trump. They aren’t all horrible people by any means. I know a lot of white people over age 50 who are very good people. I know lots of rural whites who are good people > > But sadly, if someone is extremely angry, misinformed, hostile to the rule of law, values partisanship over competence or criminality, etc there is a good chance they are white and over age 50. That has been my experience. I think 2/3 of the tea party were whites over age 50. Another thing you are forgetting or ignoring is how strong political identity is to many people. Each party has a base that would vote for whomever had the party label. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/102 "2017-12-05T18:39:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Another thing you are forgetting or ignoring is how strong political identity is to many people. Each party has a base that would vote for whomever had the party label. I would not have voted for Trump, even if he ran as a Democrat. And I consider myself part of the party’s base. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/103 "2017-12-05T18:41:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Just have to say, the username and question combos here kinda cracked me up. Well, in my defense, do reads screen names? Lol ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/104 "2017-12-05T18:42:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You realize that conservative, liberal etc. are poorly defined and encompass many people with conflicting views? But to answer your question, I’d reckon most self identified conservatives are pro capitalist and pro trade. Yes, but do they actually realize that trade is a positive sum game? That when both parties to a negotiation walk away happy, that’s the best solution? Most of the rhetoric on the right indicates that they believe that trade is zero sum, or even negative sum. They complain about automation / immigrants / offshoring is taking their jobs, while ignoring all of the benefits that come from reducing the cost of producing goods and services that we all use. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/105 "2017-12-05T18:43:15Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Have you looked at your typical Trump [rally](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zRw1TS7kX2s/maxresdefault.jpg)? (Image picked at random) Most are looking under forty; gonna be a while for them to die off. I’m not saying everyone who disagrees with me politically deserves to die. Just to clarify. But the older white generation has some deeply dysfunctional people in it. Not all white people over 50 are dysfunctional voters (wildly misinformed, arrogant, OK with treason, dogmatic, zero concern for competence and professionalism, etc), but most dysfunctional voters who fit that bill are white people over age 50. As I mentioned, 2/3 of the tea party is whites over 50. Another ~20% is whites under age 50 and 11% is non whites. Even if only 1/3 of them pass on and are replaced by more moderate millennials, that’ll make it near impossible for someone like Trump or Moore to win in the future. Right now we just have to keep the crazy aspects of the gop under control until enough die of old age to stop hurting the country. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/106 "2017-12-05T18:44:42Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I would not have voted for Trump, even if he ran as a Democrat. And I consider myself part of the party’s base. I had my reservations on all the 17 or so republican candidates, but if any one of them were up, and trump was the dem candidate, I would have voted for the R. There are a few that I wouldn’t even have to really hold my nose for, even. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/107 "2017-12-05T19:00:14Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Where’d you end up going? I’ve been happily here on the Emerald Isle for 12 years now, thanks. Got dual-citizenship through my mother’s mother who was born in County Galway. I’d encourage any of you (Americans) with Irish ancestry who are concerned about the course of events to check into Irish citizenship. Was just a bit of paperwork and a couple hundred bucks to get an Irish passport which is - more importantly - also an EU passport. Never hurts to have extra options! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/108 "2017-12-05T19:00:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Another thing you are forgetting or ignoring is how strong political identity is to many people. Each party has a base that would vote for whomever had the party label. I don’t think they would. Studies show the right has more authoritarian voters than the democrats in modern society. It may not have been that way 50 year ago but it is now. If modern Trump ran as a Dem (he was a Dem for a long time) I wouldn’t vote for him. I’d vote R or third party. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/109 "2017-12-05T19:18:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Another thing you are forgetting or ignoring is how strong political identity is to many people. Each party has a base that would vote for whomever had the party label. Nothing fucks up this whole process more than this “It doesn’t matter how low my party sinks, if I repeat “They do it tooooo!” over and over and over again” mantra. There is no shame, no self-respect, no guilt-just soulless “winning”. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/110 "2017-12-05T20:06:45Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I don’t have much hope. > > I turned 20 in 1968, so I was around as an adult for the upheaval that wracked our country then and in the years after. But I had the sense that enough good people were still in charge that the ship would right itself or at least not crash on the rocks and be lost. Even during Watergate, I never feared for the country. But now I do. Because “the call is coming from inside the house,” as it were. For this reason I think back to the McCarthy era when I’m looking for an example to reassure myself that we can survive Trump. A fascist Demagogue comes to power uses fear and hate to popularize the worst elements America and turn put it into practice. But eventually we overcame and now McCarthyism is generally recognized as a stain on our national character. So too in the decades to come will be Trumpism. I am less concerned with the rise of the alt right than others on this board. I see this as a last gasp reaction to the steady progress towards equality over the last 60 years. Basically, the battle of the bulge in response to the Normandy invasion represented by Obama’s election. We take a few steps back as the rats that were content to sleep in the shadows are now motivated to bare their teeth, but the progress continues inexorably forward. There are however two potential legacies of Trumpism that will be much harder to ferret out. First, is the emperors new clothes realization that facts are irrelevant. Previously a propagandist was limited to spinning, exaggerating and reinterpreting the facts that existed. Now Trump has demonstrated that one can make statements totally divorced from reality and suffer no real coast. Now the only limits are the imagination and I don’t see how we go back to before this revelation. Second is the conservative [court packing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/conservatives-have-a-breathtaking-plan-for-trump-to-pack-the-courts/2017/11/21/b7ce90d4-ce43-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html?utm_term=.4853fdca4c06). Six years of Republican obstruction combined with a brief interval of unchecked power and an utter lack of integrity, will mean that for the next 40 years or so over half of the judiciary will be made up of judges who the promotion of conservative ideology as the primary basis of jurisprudence. This combined with a Republican party that has no problem with taking whatever means necessary to ensure that elections are tilted in their favor, will mean that approval by simple majorities of the populace will no longer be sufficient to put Democrats in office. So while there is always room for hope there are also strong causes for deep concern. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/111 "2017-12-05T20:10:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Another thing you are forgetting or ignoring is how strong political identity is to many people. Each party has a base that would vote for whomever had the party label. True but only one party actually had a candidate as toxic as Trump actually win the nomination. As a Democrat, Trump would probably have been lucky to come in 5th behind Jim Webb. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/112 "2017-12-05T20:26:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Basically, what we have now is **Clothahump** styled conservatism; It boils down to “fuck you liberals, I will burn down my own country and sell the ashes to the Russians just to make you angry” That’s total bullshit and you know it. Go back and read the post I responded to. That kind of post is almost a liberal signature and I, for one, really don’t want people like that in positions of authority. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/113 "2017-12-05T20:48:28Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > …Second is the conservative [court packing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/conservatives-have-a-breathtaking-plan-for-trump-to-pack-the-courts/2017/11/21/b7ce90d4-ce43-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html?utm_term=.4853fdca4c06). Six years of Republican obstruction combined with a brief interval of unchecked power and an utter lack of integrity, will mean that for the next 40 years or so over half of the judiciary will be made up of judges who the promotion of conservative ideology as the primary basis of jurisprudence. This combined with a Republican party that has no problem with taking whatever means necessary to ensure that elections are tilted in their favor, will mean that approval by simple majorities of the populace will no longer be sufficient to put Democrats in office. > > … This is the most worrisome thing of all IMHO. Especially “Republican party that has no problem with taking whatever means necessary to ensure that elections are tilted in their favor.” Party first, last, and always. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/114 "2017-12-05T21:20:48Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I would not have voted for Trump, even if he ran as a Democrat. And I consider myself part of the party’s base. Ok. Your one vote doesn’t negate anything I said though. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/115 "2017-12-05T21:24:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, but do they actually realize that trade is a positive sum game? That when both parties to a negotiation walk away happy, that’s the best solution? > > Most of the rhetoric on the right indicates that they believe that trade is zero sum, or even negative sum. They complain about automation / immigrants / offshoring is taking their jobs, while ignoring all of the benefits that come from reducing the cost of producing goods and services that we all use. You realize that the fear of global trade, automation, offshoring, and unrestricted migration are different fears and not even a left wing/right wing schism? It’s a can I compete in this environment concern. My family can. We are highly educated and compensated. We also think in terms of decades not week to week. Many others don’t have that luxury. Which is why I think protectionism and isolationism are dangerous. I’d like to see a basic income and some spending increases in certain sectors. Unfortunately, that’s a tough sell. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/116 "2017-12-05T21:29:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ok. Your one vote doesn’t negate anything I said though. 1. It’s not just a few votes, democrats would not have elected him. > [@octopus](#): > > You realize that the fear of global trade, automation, offshoring, and unrestricted migration are different fears and not even a left wing/right wing schism? It’s a can I compete in this environment concern. My family can. We are highly educated and compensated. We also think in terms of decades not week to week. Many others don’t have that luxury. > > Which is why I think protectionism and isolationism are dangerous. I’d like to see a basic income and some spending increases in certain sectors. Unfortunately, that’s a tough sell. It is the party that you tend to identify with that promotes protectionism and isolationism. It is the party that I affiliate with that promotes things like a basic income and increased spending. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/117 "2017-12-05T21:55:12Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > This is the most worrisome thing of all IMHO. Especially “Republican party that has no problem with taking whatever means necessary to ensure that elections are tilted in their favor.” Party first, last, and always. Realistically, can they just create a bunch of new judges like that? What mechanism do they have to do that? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/118 "2017-12-05T21:57:46Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Realistically, can they just create a bunch of new judges like that? What mechanism do they have to do that? The number of judges is set by congress. Congress can increase the number of seats to fill, then fill them. It was tried about 100 years ago, and kinda shut down, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be tried again. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/119 "2017-12-05T22:03:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > 1. > > It’s not just a few votes, democrats would not have elected him. That’s easy to say. The truth is we don’t know how an alternative reality would have unfolded. > [@](#): > > It is the party that you tend to identify with that promotes protectionism and isolationism. No. The Republicans are generally not anti trade. Times are changing and political coalitions are shifting. At the moment, “America first” talk is resonating. And it’s not resonating with just the typical Republican. It’s resonating with a lot of people in the US. Enough to help Trump win. I’m not going to re-argue the whole election cycle but I will remind you that the left helped Trump tremendously in order to troll the Republican primaries. > [@](#): > > It is the party that I affiliate with that promotes things like a basic income and increased spending. Proper increased spending is key. With regards to a basic income, get the Democrats to do a better job selling the idea while removing barriers to growth and you might start crushing the right. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/120 "2017-12-05T22:11:26Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Realistically, can they just create a bunch of new judges like that? What mechanism do they have to do that? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The number of judges is set by congress. Congress can increase the number of seats to fill, then fill them. > > It was tried about 100 years ago, and kinda shut down, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be tried again. They don’t have to create new judge positions. They will be filling vacancies. Read and weep. [“Trump Is Rapidly Reshaping the Judiciary. Here’s How.”](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/us/politics/trump-judiciary-appeals-courts-conservatives.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > … > Mr. [Donald F.]McGahn, [White House Counsel] instructed by Mr. Trump to maximize the opportunity to reshape the judiciary, mapped out potential nominees and a strategy, according to two people familiar with the effort: Start by filling vacancies on appeals courts with multiple openings and where Democratic senators up for re-election next year in states won by Mr. Trump — like Indiana, Michigan and Pennsylvania — could be pressured not to block his nominees. And to speed them through confirmation, avoid clogging the Senate with too many nominees for the district courts, where legal philosophy is less crucial. > > Nearly a year later, that plan is coming to fruition. Mr. Trump has already appointed eight appellate judges, the most this early in a presidency since Richard M. Nixon, and on Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted along party lines to send a ninth appellate nominee — Mr. Trump’s deputy White House counsel, Gregory Katsas — to the floor. > … > Appellate judges draw less attention than Supreme Court justices like Neil M. Gorsuch, whom Mr. Trump installed in the seat that Justice Scalia’s death left vacant and that Republicans, led by Mr. McConnell, refused to let Mr. Obama fill. But the 12 regional appeals courts wield profound influence over Americans’ lives, getting the final word on about 60,000 cases a year that are not among the roughly 80 the Supreme Court hears. > … > Mr. Trump is poised to bring the conservative legal movement, which took shape in the 1980s in reaction to decades of liberal rulings on issues like the rights of criminal suspects and of women who want abortions, to a new peak of influence over American law and society. > > “What makes this a unique opportunity in modern history is the sheer number of vacancies, the number of potential vacancies because of the aging bench, and the existence of a president who really cares about this issue in his gut,” said Leonard A. Leo, an informal adviser to Mr. Trump on courts who is the executive vice president of the Federalist Society. > … [“Conservatives have a breathtaking plan for Trump to pack the courts”](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/conservatives-have-a-breathtaking-plan-for-trump-to-pack-the-courts/2017/11/21/b7ce90d4-ce43-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html?utm_term=.4f4c7db0e91d) > [@](#): > > … > If conservatives get their way, President Trump will add twice as many lifetime members to the federal judiciary in the next 12 months (650) as Barack Obama named in eight years (325). American law will never be the same. > > …In the final two years of Obama’s presidency, Senate Republicans engaged in tenacious obstruction to leave as many judicial vacancies unfilled as possible. The Garland-to-Gorsuch Supreme Court switch is the most visible example of this tactic but far from the only one: Due to GOP obstruction, “the number of [judicial] vacancies . . . on the table when [Trump] was sworn in was unprecedented,” White House Counsel Donald McGahn recently boasted to the conservative Federalist Society. > > Trump is wasting no time in filling the 103 judicial vacancies he inherited. In the first nine months of Obama’s tenure, he nominated 20 judges to the federal trial and appellate courts; in Trump’s first nine months, he named 58. Senate Republicans are racing these nominees through confirmation; last week, breaking a 100-year-old tradition, they eliminated the “blue slip” rule that allowed home-state senators to object to particularly problematic nominees. The rush to Trumpify the judiciary includes nominees rated unqualified by the American Bar Association, nominees with outrageously conservative views and nominees significantly younger (and, therefore, likely to serve longer) than those of previous presidents. As a result, by sometime next year, 1 in 8 cases filed in federal court will be heard by a judge picked by Trump. Many of these judges will likely still be serving in 2050. > … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=7)