# Do You Still Have Hope For the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575 "2017-12-04T20:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/141 "2017-12-06T19:09:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You realize that conservative, liberal etc. are poorly defined and encompass many people with conflicting views? But to answer your question, I’d reckon most self identified conservatives are pro capitalist and pro trade. My observation has been that most _self-identified_ conservatives are reactionaries, and to a pretty radical degree (it bears pointing out that _conservative_ and _radical_ are mutually exclusive properties). So, whatever other qualities they possess, it’s clear that they’re rubbish at self-identification. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/142 "2017-12-06T19:14:07Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Just want to comment on this point. We had another time where news was divided and we did survive it. The fairly balanced and honest news really only had a short run of maybe 1940s through 1980s. Then TV news became part of the Entertainment branch of TV. The rise of Radio Talk Show hosts began in earnest. Before 1920 the news was only fact based at times and had agendas. The NY Post was started as a politically biased paper and most newspapers had agendas. It culminated in the Hearst chain of papers but it was pretty much all papers. > > I admit, news coverage is probably as bad as the 1890s but I don’t think it is even at its worst. Difference is, is that in order to get news then, you had to go get a paper and read it. Today, you turn on the TV or the computer, and talking heads tell you all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/143 "2017-12-06T19:18:56Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > One thing I don’t think people have mentioned is the self-sabotage. The tax plan is trying to make it impossible for graduate students. You know, the majority of people who do research. I’m a scientist. I really fucking good one, if I do say so myself. I would not have been able to go to graduate school under the GOP tax plan. I was already living in NYC on 19K per year and had the good fortune to be married to someone making a more reasonable salary; it was hard but we got through it. Taxing me as though I was making 70K per year would have made the whole thing impossible. I would have gone to business or law school instead. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/144 "2017-12-06T19:22:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Difference is, is that in order to get news then, you had to go get a paper and read it. > > Today, you turn on the TV or the computer, and talking heads tell you all you need to know. Yes, in the old days you didn’t get disinformation bombarding you constantly. “MUSLIM MAN WITH 4 WIVES AND 22 KIDS GETS $357,000 IN WELFARE!” Put it in a dishonest paper 50 years ago, and a few people see it. Put it on Facebook today, and within an hour thousands of people have shared it and hundreds of thousands have seen it. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, it fits their preconceived notions and therefore they not only will swallow the lie, they will pass it on virally. Multiply that by thousands and you see how truth simply doesn’t matter in politics anymore. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/145 "2017-12-06T19:25:08Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Just want to comment on this point. We had another time where news was divided and we did survive it. The fairly balanced and honest news really only had a short run of maybe 1940s through 1980s. Then TV news became part of the Entertainment branch of TV. The rise of Radio Talk Show hosts began in earnest. Before 1920 the news was only fact based at times and had agendas. The NY Post was started as a politically biased paper and most newspapers had agendas. It culminated in the Hearst chain of papers but it was pretty much all papers. > > I admit, news coverage is probably as bad as the 1890s but I don’t think it is even at its worst. Your point is well taken, but look at how we’re whistling the dark. “Well, it was this bad back in the 1950s, the 1920s, the 1850s…” When I was a university student some 20 years ago, I always felt like looking forward to the future. Contrary to what people might assume from my writing, I haven’t always been a pessimist. I always envisioned myself looking forward to what we as a society could be come. It never really crossed my mind that as a middle-aged man, we as a country would be in the position of trying to reassure ourselves that as shitty as things have become, they could perhaps always be shittier. I was about to say that at least we’re not threatened with a mass extinction event, but come to think of it, **WE ARE**. And we have a president and a congress that calls people who believe in the science “snowflakes” and “buttercups” and “whiners.” How did the generation that developed the i-phone simultaneously take us back to the world of Medieval Europe? Anyway, my point is, is this what we’re reduced to now? Trying to talk ourselves up by going back deep into our history and reassuring ourselves that we were once this unjust and barbaric and that we ‘survived’? What’s infuriating to me is that we can actually do something about this. No revolutions are required. It just requires a little compassion and some education. But we can’t even be bothered to go that far. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/146 "2017-12-06T19:32:53Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > \We’ll see a brain drain. I think this would be seen (if they saw it) as a bonus by many repubs. Getting rid of them “smarty pants libruls telling us about global warning.” ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/147 "2017-12-06T19:49:12Z")
Joining this thread late because I was finishing finals. I have a lot of hope for this country because of one reason: Millennials. They’re waking up. I spend a lot of time with a lot of Millennials, and contrary to stereotypes, they care about this country and its (their!) future. More of them are becoming politically active, and I’ll tell you, they don’t like the shit that’s been happening. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/148 "2017-12-06T19:58:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Basically, what we have now is **Clothahump** styled conservatism; It boils down to “fuck you liberals, I will burn down my own country and sell the ashes to the Russians just to make you angry” > [@Clothahump](#): > > That’s total bullshit and you know it. Go back and read the post I responded to. That kind of post is almost a liberal signature and I, for one, really don’t want people like that in positions of authority. Here’s the post you responded to. I have placed emphasizing coding on the portion you quoted, and which presumably provoked your response: > [@Neo-Calredic](#): > > \*\*One simple question: Do you have hope for the future of the United States? > > Speaking for myself, I have precious little hope left. Every few days brings some affront to common decency from the piece of human filth currently festooning the Oval Office. \*\* The majority of our politicians have abandoned even the pretense that they answer to anyone but the richest of the rich. There seems to be zero accountability, and the corruption will just keep on spreading throughout the system until it is stopped — sadly, no one who could stop it seems interested in doing so. > > The USA has survived incompetence. It’s survived division. What it’s faced with now is essentially open infiltration by an enemy of everything the country claims to stand for; someone who is literally working to make life worse for the average American and to tear down the rights the nation was founded upon — and we’re just letting it happen. > > At this point, I’m afraid the best-case scenario after Trump is that the US declines into a second-rate power, but manages to recover at least a modicum of decency within the next few decades. The worst-case scenario is probably a massive new Depression caused by mendacious financial irresponsibility, followed by outright civil war. > > The country is very divided right now. Half has been essentially brainwashed into believing the other half are so evil that they actually support child molesters on their own side over anyone on the other side. The cracks are deep, and those in power are committed to making them deeper rather than bringing anyone together. I’m afraid we are teetering on the edge of a very deep, very dark precipice. So, let’s break it down. The first paragraph simply iterates the question in the thread title. Perhaps the fact that the OP felt that it was in any way appropriate to pose it that aroused your ire. If this is the case, can you elaborate on how it (or anything like it) can legitimately be characterized as “a liberal signature?” The following sentence is merely an expression of the OP’s personal opinion. It would take imbecility in titanic quantities for someone to conclude that this opinion is shared by all liberals. While I have observed that you DO possess imbecility in those quantities, the fact that you did not end your snippet with that suggests that you take issue with the final portion, to wit: > [@](#): > > Every few days brings some affront to common decency from the piece of human filth currently festooning the Oval Office. TBH, there isn’t even anything controversial about that statement. Certainly, the ability to recognize and acknowledge that perfectly obvious fact should be regarded as a _requirement_ for holding a position of authority, and not, as you state, a disqualification. Feel free to try again to support your argument that **Euphonious Polemic** ’s post is “total bullshit.” Or don’t. Due to the fact that it’s spot-on, you’d be sure to fail just as badly. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/149 "2017-12-06T20:06:54Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Joining this thread late because I was finishing finals. I have a lot of hope for this country because of one reason: Millennials. They’re waking up. I spend a lot of time with a lot of Millennials, and contrary to stereotypes, they care about this country and its (their!) future. More of them are becoming politically active, and I’ll tell you, they don’t like the shit that’s been happening. I’m a little leery of some polls I’ve seen where democratic governments don’t rate extremely high on millennials’ lists of necessities but overall I share your optimism about that group. And I’m generally optimistic about the future even though pulling ourselves away from the brink a few times in the past is no guarantee that we’ll always be able to do it again. I think we have deep systemic issues (an awkward constitutional structure and a mashup of outdated states’ rights values) and far too large a part of the electorate that has no desire to make things better in the future because of a mistaken belief that the past can not be surpassed. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/150 "2017-12-06T20:24:19Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > And I’m generally optimistic about the future even though pulling ourselves away from the brink a few times in the past is no guarantee that we’ll always be able to do it again. [This could almost be a fable.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Hoy) ---
**Author:** ![flip-68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@flip-68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flip-68)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/151 "2017-12-06T20:37:04Z")
I’m an outsider looking in (Brit) so don’t have as much knowledge of the details you guys do but in broad terms I find whats going on in USA very sinister at the moment - the devaluing of the press, the attacks on the environment and it’s protection, the idea that truth is whatever the president and the elites say it is, laws being ignored and the mob cheering for it even as their health plans are taken away from them. it feels like the breakdown of decency - like we’ve gone beyond the point where someone would say ‘enough’. i don’t agree with republican politics generally but this force that’s been unleashed is scary - there’s nothing to hold these guys back anymore. they break all the rules they used to crucify the democrats since the 90’s but that doesn’t matter - they give a tax break to the super wealthy that is so brazen it’s breathtaking - the president is cheating lying sexual predator and it doesn’t matter. i had hoped that the Mueller investigation would unearth the ‘smoking gun’ but now i feel that even if it does it won’t matter. power has already been transferred to a group of people who will cry fake news, ignore it and point the finger elsewhere. the revolution has already happened. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/152 "2017-12-06T20:41:55Z")
It is easy to see this as the start of Idiocracy, but I’m pretty sure we’ll push back and get the country back on track. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/153 "2017-12-06T20:43:47Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > It is easy to see this as the start of Idiocracy, but I’m pretty sure we’ll push back and get the country back on track. The most unrealistic part of that movie was that it took 500 years. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/154 "2017-12-06T21:00:55Z")
> [@flip-68](#): > > I’m an outsider looking in (Brit) so don’t have as much knowledge of the details you guys do but in broad terms I find whats going on in USA very sinister at the moment - the devaluing of the press, the attacks on the environment and it’s protection, the idea that truth is whatever the president and the elites say it is, laws being ignored and the mob cheering for it even as their health plans are taken away from them. > > it feels like the breakdown of decency - like we’ve gone beyond the point where someone would say ‘enough’. i don’t agree with republican politics generally but this force that’s been unleashed is scary - there’s nothing to hold these guys back anymore. they break all the rules they used to crucify the democrats since the 90’s but that doesn’t matter - they give a tax break to the super wealthy that is so brazen it’s breathtaking - the president is cheating lying sexual predator and it doesn’t matter. > > i had hoped that the Mueller investigation would unearth the ‘smoking gun’ but now i feel that even if it does it won’t matter. power has already been transferred to a group of people who will cry fake news, ignore it and point the finger elsewhere. the revolution has already happened. This is the end result of decades of brainwashing, propaganda and preying on people’s worst impluses (bigotry, nativism, fear, contempt, egoism) by the right to win elections. Every since the 1960s the right has learned if they prey on people’s bigotry and racial resentment, they can win elections. Starting in the 80s they created propaganda networks that not only fed their listeners one sided stories but (much worse) made their listeners believe any media outlet than wasn’t propaganda was itself dishonest propaganda. It is Orwellian, people who get their news from dishonest propaganda think real News is dishonest propaganda. Decades of intentionally making their voters angry, bigoted, misinformed and afraid has come to this. A lot of us here are deeply ashamed and disappointed of America and its people. Hopefully we can get back on track someday. But the world will never respect or trust us again. I don’t blame them. 70% of republicans in Alabama think all the roy Moore accusations are ‘fake’. No matter what evidence is uncovered about Trump, I bet 50-70%of Republicans will dismiss it as fake. The rest won’t care enough to change their vote. Our best bet is to hope these people die of old age and limit the damage they can do Until that happens. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/155 "2017-12-06T21:07:34Z")
One small bit of hope, if true. > [@Decider](#): > > She also rubbed Breitbart’s traffic numbers in his face, saying that the site’s traffic is down 20% from last year and the number of \*\*advertisers \*\*on the site has reportedly **dropped by 90%.** I got that from a link in the NY Post Baseball pages to the [Decider](https://decider.com/2017/12/06/meghan-mccain-steve-bannon-the-view/). No idea if they are a worthwhile source or if Megan McCain is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/156 "2017-12-06T23:30:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We are at a time of greater danger than any point in our history. Sure, the Civil War was traumatic, but the nation survived because the good side prevailed militarily. It was a great danger to the prospects of the nation’s survival, but we know it came out okay. We don’t know if we will survive this current crisis. > > The 1960s gave us left wing resistance to Vietnam and right wing resistance to civil rights. But you know what the difference was between then and now? We all read the same papers, we all watched the same news. You didn’t have the right wing bubble completely detached from reality as we do now. And I don’t buy the bothsidesdoitism that is the knee-jerk reaction. There is no liberal equivalent to Fox “News”, One America “News”, Sinclair Broadcasting, Limbaugh, Savage, etc. The right wing has its own version of reality and they spread lies constantly on Facebook and other social media. A significant number of people get their news from Facebook memes. The people are dumbing down rapidly. > > The Republicans have shamelessly exploited the ignorance and bigotry among the least of us. All of our problems are due to “the other”. Muslims are all terrorists. Mexicans are coming to steal our jobs and rape the white women. Blacks all want free stuff and the won’t even stand for the national anthem! These lies now come in the form of train whistles where in the past they used dog whistles. Nixon’s Southern Strategy welcomed the racists with open arms. Reagan’s campaign opening in Philadelphia, MS was a dog whistle. His welfare queen fables were a dog whistle. Now Don the Con has made it acceptable for racists and bigots of all stripes to proudly wear their hatred and their ignorance like a badge of “honor”. > > Yes, we’re in extreme danger and the fault lies 100% with Republicans. They’re the ones who refused to work with a black president. They’re the ones that used the lies about the ACA to take many state houses in 2010 and then gerrymandered themselves into dominance. They’re the ones trying to suppress the votes of the opposition. > > We have one chance and one chance only- the 2020 election. If Democrats can win all branches of government and take enough statehouses to un-gerrymander the districts, democracy has a chance. If Don the Con himself or another Bannon disciple should win in 2020, then forget about it. The great American experiment will have failed. I can’t find too many holes in this summation. I’m definitely getting more pessimistic/concerned as time goes on. Gerrymandering and the electoral college are big concerns. Sure, the Dems also gerrymandered, but nowhere _near_ to the fucking obscene extent that the Pubs have, and even if the Dems, say, 10-15 years from now, were to somehow benefit from the EC, I’d _still_ advocate for its abolishment - not much use if EC members are now expected to vote along party lines, instead of providing a safeguard against ignorant, “addled” voters. 538 voters taking precedence over 300,000,000? And don’t get me started on that “voter fraud” ka-ka (an evilly fucked-up conceit resulting in voter suppression). > [@RandMcnally](#): > > We’ll see a brain drain. France’s President Emmanuel Macron was all over this last June: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51xG416\_UPI ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/157 "2017-12-07T00:40:07Z")
The thing about gerrymandering is that, to maximize the number of seats they take, the Republicans have shaved the anticipated margins of victory down to a level that would not be able to withstand a “wave” election. That gives me some hope that we may be able to turn this thing around. I also think that, while trump is able to rally his base very effectively, a lot of people can only be told that it’s raining so many times before realizing that they’re actually getting their heads pissed on. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/158 "2017-12-07T00:45:15Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I also think that, while trump is able to rally his base very effectively, a lot of people can only be told that it’s raining so many times before realizing that they’re actually getting their heads pissed on. …by Killary and Obummer’s legacy? ETA: Not sure if Russian prostitutes somehow fit into this equation. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/159 "2017-12-07T01:54:31Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Joining this thread late because I was finishing finals. I have a lot of hope for this country because of one reason: Millennials. They’re waking up. I spend a lot of time with a lot of Millennials, and contrary to stereotypes, they care about this country and its (their!) future. More of them are becoming politically active, and I’ll tell you, they don’t like the shit that’s been happening. I also think this cohort is a rare source of optimism. In this context they’re significant because they are the first generation to grow up with news sources and social information, on their little hand held computers, beyond the propagandist mainstream. They see the USA in a broader, fact-based world. A great difficulty, for me, remains city vs. country. Metro liberals have no idea, and don’t seem to care, about how much of the the country beyond their socio-political horizons is hurting badly. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575/160 "2017-12-07T02:53:11Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > A great difficulty, for me, remains city vs. country. Metro liberals have no idea, and don’t seem to care, about how much of the the country beyond their socio-political horizons is hurting badly. This is generally not true in my experience. I think that metro liberals are indeed very much aware of things like the loss of factory jobs and the drug crises that has ravaged the heartland. They typically advocate fairer policies than the conservatives who lie to the white working class with slogans like drain the swamp and make American great again, and the hire nothing but billionaires who loot taxpayers on a daily basis. I think metro liberals understand the facts and circumstances that affect rural white American pretty well - better than the conservatives these people keep voting for. If liberals are guilty of one thing it’s not understanding how they perceive the world. Some liberals are dismissive of their perceptions and wrote them off for failing to live up to meet their epistemic tests. They don’t understand how white folks can perceive diversity at the expense of the white working class because diversity is a liberal value. They don’t understand how people who grew up in a world without gay marriage can’t just tolerate and accept gay and lesbian couples publicly displaying their affection. So thus it begins, the clash of values, the clash of cultures. In this respect, liberals often just don’t get it. Liberals don’t have to accept the heartland’s value system, but they need to understand it and try to find ways to message around it. But ultimately, what’s really important is for liberals to turn economics and having a higher standard of living into family values. I understand why Democrats chased the money in the 1990s and 2000s - in a relatively stable economic and political environment, the politics of centrism and compromise still prevailed. The two parties still operated conventionally as two slightly inverted versions of the same coin. Democrats felt they needed special interest money - Wall Street money in particular - to compete with their counterparts. But in doing so, the Democrats lost their edge and lost an identity in the process. They stopped associating economics and standards of living with values, and by doing that Republicans made values a debate about how people should behave in private life and what the government could do to prevent people from behaving badly in their bedrooms. That’s what “values” became, and economics just became stats and data. It’s hard to win elections that way, as the Democrats have found out. Bernie Sanders has the right idea: if Democrats are to win, they have to have a clear and loud voice in defense of economic and social justice. Without these, we’re not really a free society, let alone not a prosperous one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-still-have-hope-for-the-united-states/803575.md?page=9)