# Do you support forced interrogation/torture of suspected Terrorists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631 "2007-10-05T13:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/21 "2007-10-05T16:23:28Z")
[QUOTE=PatriotX] _ **IRL** _, 99.999+% of the time torture is neither useful nor ethically tolerable. There are, of course, _ **contrived hypothetical situations** _ that could justify it. [/QUOTE] I kinda thought that’s what we were discussing, **PatriotX**. I wonder how often situations similar to my hypotheses happen…I’m guessing fairly often in conflict zones. I wonder if that 99.99%+ number is reliable. I think the posters who claim that member+torture = misinformation aren’t thinking real-life situations. If we assume that all torturees are fervent, fanatic disciples who will hide the truth to the end, then possibly. I would guess (IANAT) that a good amount of interrogation is up-front discussion of what’s at stake during the interrogation. I would think that, if the interrogator makes it clear what is wanted, and if the information is not of world-beating importance, that the interrogator will likely get information that’s useable. To piggy-back on \*\*Sage Rat’s \*\* earlier post, the point of an interrogation is not always to get an “answer”, but to get data points around which you can add context. Once you have a contextual pattern, you can use that as a reference point to true/false other statements. **Der Trihs** … not to be confrontational, but are you seriously telling me that you can’t devise a thought experiement in which you woudl not find torture to be the way out? -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/22 "2007-10-05T16:27:11Z")
[QUOTE=hawthorne] What are “known terrorist connections”? Information from a government agency saying that his name came up in their database? Tried and convicted of an (attempted) atrocity where the tested evidence showed collaboration with others who’d engaged in atrocities? I don’t think governments and their agents have the information, wisdom or self-control to have the power to torture. Mostly they won’t get the right person at the right time. [/QUOTE] Since we’re still in thought mode, I would say that “known terrorist connections” would consist of known data linking the person being tortured, the informational goal, and an action defined as terrorist in nature (which is a whole 'nother thread, IMO). I woudl tend toward your second statement, where the person was tried and found to be guilty of association, but I’m sure there are grey areas in that definition as well. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/23 "2007-10-05T16:30:16Z")
Okay, **Whack-a-Mole**. You have photos of a man posing with a nuclear bomb in a New York taxi. The ID of the taxi and its driver are obscured, no matter how much Grissom zooms in, you can’t tell which taxi. The countdown on the bomb is set to detonate at 1pm. It’s 12:50pm. You’ve been torturing the suspect (the one from the photo) for hours, but for some reason no matter what you do he won’t talk. It’s almost as if he feels no pain or discomfort, he just continues smiling at you. He knows he only has to hold out another 10 minutes. You have the man’s family in custody. Would you torture his wife infront of him? What about his children (10yrs and 5yrs)? Do the ends really justify the means? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/24 "2007-10-05T16:35:02Z")
It works for Jack Bauer. And I can’t believe there is a photograph or still from a security camera that Grissom’s computer can’t clean up enough to read a taxi number, even if the guy is standing in front of it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/25 "2007-10-05T16:35:12Z")
[QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] I think the posters who claim that member+torture = misinformation aren’t thinking real-life situations. If we assume that all torturees are fervent, fanatic disciples who will hide the truth to the end, then possibly. [/quote] They ALL are. Specifically, being human, they are “fervent, fanatic disciples” of the cause of not being tortured. They’ll all lie, and tell you what they think you want to hear, and they’ll keep doing so. Including after you are done torturing them; IIRC, when we tortured people is when we **stopped** getting useful information. [QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] **Der Trihs** … not to be confrontational, but are you seriously telling me that you can’t devise a thought experiement in which you woudl not find torture to be the way out? [/QUOTE] Probably. I could just as easily make one where molesting a child is the way out ( aliens will blow up Earth if you don’t, say ). That doesn’t make it either likely to happen, or right, or something that should be tolerated much less approved of. In the **real world** , torture is about cruelty. Why else would people handwave away the near certainty of innocent people being tortured, or of the “information” gained being useless ? Torture isn’t done to accomplish a goal; it is the goal. It is a monstrous act, performed by monsters. Torturers deserve execution simply for being the sort of people who are willing to torture. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/26 "2007-10-05T16:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] Okay, **Whack-a-Mole**. You have photos of a man posing with a nuclear bomb in a New York taxi. The ID of the taxi and its driver are obscured, no matter how much Grissom zooms in, you can’t tell which taxi. The countdown on the bomb is set to detonate at 1pm. It’s 12:50pm. You’ve been torturing the suspect (the one from the photo) for hours, but for some reason no matter what you do he won’t talk. It’s almost as if he feels no pain or discomfort, he just continues smiling at you. He knows he only has to hold out another 10 minutes. You have the man’s family in custody. Would you torture his wife infront of him? What about his children (10yrs and 5yrs)? Do the ends really justify the means? [/QUOTE] I honestly do not know. Were I faced (with the admittedly HIGHLY unlikely situation we are talking about) with certain death and mayhem on a scale that involves millions of lives I just do not know. Honestly I seriously doubt I could torture anyone else, adult much less child, just to make the guy who does know talk. I do think in the end it is for society to determine if the ends justify the means. Yes I took Philosophy classes and to this day I have never settled on a firm way of approaching these moral dilemmas (that is should I opt for virtue ethics or consequentialism or deontology?). In general I think separating the ideal from the pragmatic is the way to go and yes, there are many shades of gray there and it does open the door to the slippery slope. In the end you make your decisions and others will judge your actions. Ultimately laws are a societal construct so it is they who make the final judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/27 "2007-10-05T16:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] They ALL are. Specifically, being human, they are “fervent, fanatic disciples” of the cause of not being tortured. They’ll all lie, and tell you what they think you want to hear, and they’ll keep doing so. Including after you are done torturing them; IIRC, when we tortured people is when we **stopped** getting useful information. [/QUOTE] I would think the easiest way to avoid misinformation would be to not ask yes/no questions. I doubt I’m the first on e to think of this. Actually, your statement would work in favor of a torturer. As long as the parameters are stated and the torturee knows what’s at stake, I would think the interrogator could get fairly accurate data points. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Probably. I could just as easily make one where molesting a child is the way out ( aliens will blow up Earth if you don’t, say ). That doesn’t make it either likely to happen, or right, or something that should be tolerated much less approved of. [/QUOTE] Meh. If you’re going to construct a doppelganger, make it look right. I gave two instances of where I thought a real-life situation might impinge on our torturing discussion. It’s become very easy to deny Machiavelli…I believe that the ends DO sometimes justify the means. And we all know aliens want our water…why blow us up? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] In the **real world** , torture is about cruelty. Why else would people handwave away the near certainty of innocent people being tortured, or of the “information” gained being useless ? Torture isn’t done to accomplish a goal; it is the goal. It is a monstrous act, performed by monsters. Torturers deserve execution simply for being the sort of people who are willing to torture. [/QUOTE] Torture is absolutely about cruelty. That’s why it’s feared, it’s why it will never go away, and it’s why it’s still used as leverage. And, except for (hopefully) rare cases, I doubt that many people go into a war/conflict as a means to use that battery/nipple-clamp setup they bought out of the back of _Soldier Of Fortune_. I agree it’s not the most pleasant thing to imagine, but I do believe that torture has a place in extreme situations. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/28 "2007-10-05T16:56:39Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] In general I think separating the ideal from the pragmatic is the way to go… [/QUOTE] I missed the edit window: Actually I try to abide by the ideal but am not totally hidebound to it. For instance you could say lying is always wrong. In general I abide by that but I do think instances arise where lying is actually the right way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/29 "2007-10-05T17:00:31Z")
I’m not against the principle of torture. It just doesn’t work, and torturing someone can lead to some pretty disasterously wrong information, causing unneccessary wars and whatnot. So, torture isn’t a useful tool. There’s no way to make it useful. The only thing it accomplishes is to “punish” someone, which our legal system is supposed to be in charge of. The only entity that should ever have the authority to punish an individual are the courts, and taking part of that power away from the law and giving it to some guy with a car battery and nobody watching isn’t a particularly good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/30 "2007-10-05T17:07:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] In the **real world** , torture is about cruelty. Why else would people handwave away the near certainty of innocent people being tortured, or of the “information” gained being useless ? Torture isn’t done to accomplish a goal; it is the goal. It is a monstrous act, performed by monsters. Torturers deserve execution simply for being the sort of people who are willing to torture. [/QUOTE] If someone pointed a gun at you, would you rather him shoot you and your family or to be able to shoot him first? Short of ridding humanity of all scum, it’s fairly well a given that either you have to stoop to their level to make them stop, or sit back and let them keep doing it till they grow old and die. Is it more moral to let North Korea starve its people than to go in, surround the North Korean government’s bunker, and starve them out? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/31 "2007-10-05T17:09:45Z")
[QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] I would think the easiest way to avoid misinformation would be to not ask yes/no questions. I doubt I’m the first on e to think of this. Actually, your statement would work in favor of a torturer. As long as the parameters are stated and the torturee knows what’s at stake, I would think the interrogator could get fairly accurate data points. [/quote] Not that I’ve ever heard. And I fail to see how not using yes-no questions would make a difference. I’m sure someone could and would come up with names and locations and plans for a nonexistant terrorist plot if someone was torturing them; no yes-no questions required. [QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] Torture is absolutely about cruelty. That’s why it’s feared, it’s why it will never go away, and it’s why it’s still used as leverage. [/quote] It’s feared because it **hurts** , not because it’s cruel. People would fear it if an uncaring machine did it. And it’s not done for leverage, it’s done out of malice and sadism. [QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] I agree it’s not the most pleasant thing to imagine, but I do believe that torture has a place in extreme situations. [/quote] NEVER. And as I said, anyone who does so should be killed. No exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/32 "2007-10-05T17:13:46Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] If someone pointed a gun at you, would you rather him shoot you and your family or to be able to shoot him first? [/quote] That has nothing at all to do with torture. [QUOTE=Sage Rat] Short of ridding humanity of all scum, it’s fairly well a given that either you have to stoop to their level to make them stop, or sit back and let them keep doing it till they grow old and die. [/quote] If you do so, then YOU are scum yourself, and you haven’t stopped anything, just added to it. And put yourself in a position where you can’t complain about people who torture you and yours, unless you are a complete hypocrite. Which people who support positions like yours tend to be; torture is only bad when OTHER people do it. [QUOTE=Sage Rat] Is it more moral to let North Korea starve its people than to go in, surround the North Korean government’s bunker, and starve them out? [/QUOTE] Again, nothing to do with torture. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/33 "2007-10-05T17:16:20Z")
The big sticking point I’ve had with torture proponents is that they fail to make the distinction: Suspected terrorist =/= Terrorist. To thier mind, a suspected terrorist IS a terrorist, and has no right to anything. I have seen or heard NOTHING from officialdom to indicate that if a terrorist were to dial a wrong number, and connect to my phone, that there is any possible way I could show that I am not a terrorist…and the longer I would deny such, the greater the need for torture would be. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/34 "2007-10-05T17:16:24Z")
[QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] I kinda thought that’s what we were discussing, **PatriotX**. I wonder how often situations similar to my hypotheses happen…I’m guessing fairly often in conflict zones. [/quote] AFAICT, there’s no limitation that we discuss made up situations. Do you agree with Torture of suspected terrorists whilst in the custody of an allied nation? …is it ok to torture them for information? How about mild torture like sleep deprovation? Is that ok? What do you think of torture and the treatment of military combatants? However, most interrogations do not involve a ticking bomb scenario. [QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] I wonder if that 99.99%+ number is reliable. [/quote] Of course it’s reliable - it has 5 significant digits!! 😉 From the cite below The devaluation of rapport — that is, building an operational accord with a source — as an effective means of gaining compliance from a resistant source is in large measure the product of the **misguided public debate over the role of interrogation in the Global War on Terror, one that seems invariably to focus on the “ticking bomb” scenario. The point can be safely made that for every instance where a source might have information about an imminent, catastrophic terrorist event, there are hundreds (possibly thousands) of interrogations where the information requirements are far less urgent and the opportunity exists for a thoughtful, systematic approach.** In the case of the latter, the interrogator might be well served in designing an effective approach regime by asking himself/ herself, as recommended in the KUBARK manual, “‘How can I make him want to tell me what he knows?’38 rather than ‘How can I trap him into disclosing what he knows?’” 39 Operational accord seeks to effectively, albeit subtly, gain the source’s cooperation and maintain that productive relationship for as long as possible without betraying indicators of manipulation or exploitation on the part of the interrogator. **Educing Information** [http://www.dia.mil/college/3866.pdf](http://www.dia.mil/college/3866.pdf) KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator A major stumbling block to the study of interrogation, and especially to the conduct of interrogation in fi eld operations, has been the all-too-common misunderstanding of the nature and scope of the discipline. Most observers, even those within professional circles, have unfortunately been infl uenced by the media’s colorful (and artifi cial) view of interrogation as almost always involving hostility and the employment of force – be it physical or psychological – by the interrogator against the hapless, often slow-witted subject. This false assumption is belied by historic trends that show the majority of sources (some estimates range as high as 90 percent) have provided meaningful answers to pertinent questions in response to direct questioning (i.e., questions posed in an essentially administrative manner rather than in concert with an orchestrated approach designed to weaken the source’s resistance). Operating with a dearth of research in support of offensive interrogation methodology, the writers of the KUBARK manual appear to have found themselves in a situation not unlike that experienced by interrogation personnel today. In essence, KUBARK’s coercive methods refl ected concepts derived from research into hostile methods — government research carried out specifi cally to help identify effective countermeasures — and then “reverse engineered” selected principles to meet operational requirements. In large measure, the abuses — alleged or actual — perpetrated by U.S. interrogation personnel since the advent of the war on terror can be explained (albeit not defended) by the very same dynamic. With interrogation doctrine refl ecting little change from the 1960s and producing few substantial successes in the current battlespace, commanders, operators, and intelligence offi cers have sought an alternative. In considering options, it became readily apparent that the experts in Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) were the “only other game in town.” While offensive and defensive interrogation operations have much in common, there are intractable differences. Defensive interrogation training is designed to help U.S. personnel withstand the unique stresses of all manner of exploitation — including the employment of coercive methods — to protect information and avoid becoming pawns in an adversary’s attempt to generate useful propaganda. To prepare personnel for this substantial challenge, resistance training seeks to create a systematic threat environment to achieve “stress inoculation.” This includes exposing trainees to intensive role-played interrogation scenarios. In the course of many years of experience in such practical exercises, many of the resistance instructors have become accomplished role-play interrogators. However, there are three fundamental reasons why experience as a resistance instructor does not necessarily prepare someone for service as an intelligence interrogator. First, resistance instructors — portraying interrogators from potential adversarial nations that have shown disregard for international convention on the treatment of prisoners — routinely employ a wide range of coercive methods that often fall well outside Geneva Convention guidelines. Second, although questioning is an important element of the role-play exercise, this activity does not reach the depth required in an intelligence interrogation. Third, resistance instructors, though talented professionals, lack the training, linguistic skills, and subject matter expertise required of interrogation personnel. In sum, the employment of resistance instructors in interrogation — whether as consultants or as practitioners — is an example of the proverbial attempt to place the square peg in the round hole. Despite the impressive success achieved by interrogators who have mastered the skill of effectively establishing rapport with a source — \*\*[the celebrated Luftwaffe interrogator Hanns Scharff](http://www.google.com/search?q=Hanns+Scharff&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)\*\*37 providing but one well-known example — methods for rapport-building continue to receive relatively little attention in current interrogation training programs. There seems to be an unfounded yet widespread presumption that all persons inherently possess the skills necessary for building rapport and therefore do not require any supplemental training to hone this ability. While the KUBARK manual has gained a degree of infamy through its association with coercive means, it also, in an interesting stroke of irony, consistently emphasizes the value of rapport-building as an essential tool for the interrogator. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/35 "2007-10-05T17:20:19Z")
Would you support the Iranians torturing an American spy who had entered the country to plant a nuclear weapon at one of their power plants? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/36 "2007-10-05T17:27:24Z")
I am definitely in the “no” camp, BTW. My question is posed to those who may believe torture is justified. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/37 "2007-10-05T17:27:53Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That has nothing at all to do with torture. [/quote] It entirely has to do with torture. > [@](#): > > If you do so, then YOU are scum yourself, and you haven’t stopped anything, just added to it. And put yourself in a position where you can’t complain about people who torture you and yours, unless you are a complete hypocrite. Which people who support positions like yours tend to be; torture is only bad when OTHER people do it. So then what is your answer for North Korea? Is it more moral to watch the government torture its people or step in and starve out the government? With “The ends never justify the means” and “Inaction in the face of suffering is a moral good” I think you’ll find that everyone agrees with the first but not the latter even though they say the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/38 "2007-10-05T17:28:50Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Do you agree with Torture of suspected terrorists whilst in the custody of an allied nation? […snip…] is it ok to torture them for information? How about mild torture like sleep deprovation? Is that ok? [/QUOTE] I do not agree with torture in any form. It is never OK to torture anyone, even through sleep deprivation or other “mild” forms. Captured personnel (“terrorists”, “unlawful combatants”, “insurgents” etc.) should either be treated as POWs - with all that that entails via international law - or else subject to the regular criminal justice system. Not held in gray-area extraterritorial gulags and tortured. In a way, America is saying that its criminal justice system is so fucked up that it can’t handle all the Gitmo detainees properly. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/39 "2007-10-05T17:30:00Z")
1. Torture is immoral. Certainly violent dictatorships are happy to use it. What sort of society do you want to live in? 2. There is plenty of evidence that people held at Guantanamo Bay (no trial, no lawyers, tortured) are innocent. Those people are there because the US says the Geneva Convention doesn’t apply. “We torture them because they are suspected terrorists. They are suspected terrorists because we say so.” 3. It doesn’t stop the terrorism. The British used torture on the IRA for decades, but all it did was create new recruits. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/40 "2007-10-05T17:34:17Z")
I am opposed to torture on moral grounds. It’s cruel and it’s wrong, independent of any results or possible good that it might achieve. But in terms of its efficacy, I was profoundly influened by reading about the witch hunts in early modern Europe in _Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds_. Although not all witches were convicted based on torture, thousands were. The best current estimate is that 40,000 people were executed for being witches, and given that witches _don’t exist_, every single one of those confessions under torture (including the thousands of individuals who were named as witches by someone being tortured and were then executed) was completely false. Torture will cause people to say whatever they need to say to get the pain to stop. In some cases, that might even be the truth. But the price for that truth, combined with the uncertainty about the quality of the information provided, makes me unequivocally opposed to its use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631.md?page=3)