# Do you support forced interrogation/torture of suspected Terrorists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631 "2007-10-05T13:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2007, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/121 "2007-10-07T15:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There is no tactical advantage in being humane and decent. If you’re gonna wear the white hat, you better know that up front. [/QUOTE] I urge you to read the [Good General’s work](http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/56ec379292979da685256bd0006c696e/ccd3de69d39f572e85257250005efeb3/$FILE/MCWP%203-33.5%20part%201.pdf) _(PDF!!)_ One can debate whether it’s tacticianalism or strategery I suppose, but it’s clear that it does in fact convey advantage not only in a PR sense, but in the more base practical efficiency sense. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/122 "2007-10-07T15:05:56Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] **Voyager** Or, alternatively, it might **stop** a dozen more attacks. You can argue that one either way. Regards Testy [/QUOTE] It might inspire elephants to fly back out of my ass ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/123 "2007-10-08T00:29:16Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] **Voyager** Or, alternatively, it might **stop** a dozen more attacks. You can argue that one either way. Regards Testy [/QUOTE] In Iraq it has inspired many more attacks than it stopped, and destroyed our credibility. If you claim that torture ever has stopped any attacks (outside of 24) please give some evidence. And imminence is essential. Given enough time, legal means can get the information, which must be why the experts are against torture. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/124 "2007-10-08T00:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] That I’m aware, unrest in the area is an issue of ethnic and religious prejudices. Given that torture has been something that’s been practiced, most likely, regularly since the dawn of history in the area without break, it makes little sense to ascribe to it all the new problems with the area. [/quote] Perhaps they might have been under the illusion we were different, and would have been more peaceful if we had actually been different? Not everyone, of course, but enough so there would be solid intelligence on the insurgents from the population? There are well known ways of dealing with insurgencies. Of course the Bushies, knowing better, ignored them, and we can see the result. > [@](#): > > In that they feel safe to thwart us, principally. Though admittedly, that’s proving the thesis with the thesis itself. But when you look at, for instance, the crime growth in the US since cameras were placed in police cars and interrogation rooms and the (in some places) inadmissability of confessions into court, etc.; the prevalence of music sharing versus the lack of people selling copied CDs on street corners; or by simple logic; it makes sense that people are more likely to break the law when they think they can get away with it. You might try living in the real world for a while. The fact is, crime rates are going down recently, and are significantly lower than they were 10 years ago. [Cite.](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) By your logic, videos in police cars is actually decreasing the crime rate. Actually, I’m sure it has nothing to do with it - except maybe decrease the rate of crime committed by police. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/125 "2007-10-08T00:39:30Z")
[QUOTE=PatriotX] It might inspire elephants to fly back out of my ass [/QUOTE] You mean they flew in? :eek: Please tell them to find some more appropriate ass, like the President’s. (That gotta hurt.) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/126 "2007-10-08T01:13:56Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] And imminence is essential. Given enough time, legal means can get the information, which must be why the experts are against torture. [/QUOTE] Clearly, the object of an intelligence service is to gather and interpret intelligence. Stopping an imminent attack of some sort isn’t the purpose of intelligence gathering. All of the hypotheticals like “would you be for torture if someone were holding you children and …” are just bullshit. None of the torture that is being defended here has been for the purpose of finding out where the atomick bomb is hidden. It’s all been about getting intelligence. I know, claims are made that many attacks have been thwarted by such methods but it just so happens that, conveniently, we can’t give specifics because we don’t want our enemies to know too much about our methods. We should believe this why? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/127 "2007-10-08T01:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] You might try living in the real world for a while. The fact is, crime rates are going down recently, and are significantly lower than they were 10 years ago. [Cite.](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) By your logic, videos in police cars is actually decreasing the crime rate. Actually, I’m sure it has nothing to do with it - except maybe decrease the rate of crime committed by police. [/QUOTE] I was referring to the 50’s not the 90’s. (Or modern day, even, if you live in Japan.) ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/128 "2007-10-08T03:43:50Z")
[QUOTE=PatriotX] It might inspire elephants to fly back out of my ass [/QUOTE] **Patriotx** Yeah, it _might_ do all kinds of things. Testy ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/129 "2007-10-08T04:08:39Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] In Iraq it has inspired many more attacks than it stopped, and destroyed our credibility. If you claim that torture ever has stopped any attacks (outside of 24) please give some evidence. And imminence is essential. Given enough time, legal means can get the information, which must be why the experts are against torture. [/QUOTE] **Voyager** Given the time, I agree that legal means are best for everyone involved. As far as it inspiring attacks, how do we know this? I don’t understand your “outside of 24” reference. Is that a TV show? I’m not too sure about our “credibility” either. What are we supposed to be credible **as?** We invaded the place under the pretext of freeing them from Saddam and scooping-up their WMD. Well, that’s done and now we won’t go away and let them fight it out. From the POV of most of those people we’re simply one more invader. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/130 "2007-10-08T04:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] As far as it inspiring attacks, how do we know this? [/quote] Human nature, for one. It would be rather bizarre if it didn’t. [QUOTE=Testy] I don’t understand your “outside of 24” reference. Is that a TV show? [/quote] Yes. Very pro-torture, i’m told. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/131 "2007-10-08T05:41:14Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Human nature, for one. It would be rather bizarre if it didn’t. Yes. Very pro-torture, i’m told. [/QUOTE] **Der Trihs** Thank you, I have satellite but don’t watch much TV at all. Personally, I’d try to stay far away from anyone that caught and tortured me. They’d be about the last bunch I’d want to meet up with in the future. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/132 "2007-10-08T06:19:07Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] **Voyager** Given the time, I agree that legal means are best for everyone involved. As far as it inspiring attacks, how do we know this? I don’t understand your “outside of 24” reference. Is that a TV show? I’m not too sure about our “credibility” either. What are we supposed to be credible **as?** We invaded the place under the pretext of freeing them from Saddam and scooping-up their WMD. Well, that’s done and now we won’t go away and let them fight it out. From the POV of most of those people we’re simply one more invader. Regards Testy [/QUOTE] 24 is indeed a TV show. In the show, the hero, an agent, tortures people in ticking bomb scenarios, and it works. People who taught interrogation techniques reported concern that their young students were coming in convinced that the TV show reflected reality. As for evidence that harsh measures lead to increased insurgency, I direct you to **Fiasco** [Amazon entry](http://www.amazon.com/Fiasco-American-Military-Adventure-Iraq/dp/0143038915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0647753-0226200?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191824072&sr=1-1) which gives lots of evidence. As for your comments on our credibility, I agree. Even worse, we screwed up their infrastructure and have been unable to restore it, despite spending tons of money. So we look incompetent or uncaring also. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/133 "2007-10-08T06:22:19Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] I was referring to the 50’s not the 90’s. (Or modern day, even, if you live in Japan.) [/QUOTE] That’s so far back as to be incomparable. Try 50 years further back - much worse. In any case, I grew up in the ‘50s, and our parents’ generation was totally convinced the world was going to hell in a handbasket. Ever hear of juvenile delinquents? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/134 "2007-10-08T08:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] That’s so far back as to be incomparable. Try 50 years further back - much worse. In any case, I grew up in the ‘50s, and our parents’ generation was totally convinced the world was going to hell in a handbasket. Ever hear of juvenile delinquents? [/QUOTE] I’m talking about crime rates, not perception. If you watch the crime rate between 1960 and 1980, it triples. ([Cite](http://www.moralityindex.com/crime.html).) They are decreasing again, but the good bet would be that this has to do with the three strikes laws, modern forensics, and (possibly) the legality of abortion. But what explanation do you have for the sudden rise? ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/135 "2007-10-08T08:18:36Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] 24 is indeed a TV show. In the show, the hero, an agent, tortures people in ticking bomb scenarios, and it works. People who taught interrogation techniques reported concern that their young students were coming in convinced that the TV show reflected reality. As for evidence that harsh measures lead to increased insurgency, I direct you to **Fiasco** [Amazon entry](http://www.amazon.com/Fiasco-American-Military-Adventure-Iraq/dp/0143038915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0647753-0226200?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191824072&sr=1-1) which gives lots of evidence. As for your comments on our credibility, I agree. Even worse, we screwed up their infrastructure and have been unable to restore it, despite spending tons of money. So we look incompetent or uncaring also. [/QUOTE] **Voyager** You’re kidding me right? Is there actually a (mainstream) TV show where the hero runs around torturing people? Just going by the description, it sounds a bit warped. Never mind. Sorry to hear that people thought it was real. Kind of like the “CSI effect” I’ve heard of. The infrastructure up there is so totally fucked that people may just have to start over. As I understand it, the infrastructure was more-or-less held together by duct-tape and bailing wire and the bombing was just the final straw. Preventive maintenance just wasn’t a priority with those guys. Unfortunately, it takes a couple of weeks to get books shipped in here and is generally a chancy and uncertain process so I’m probably not going to get to read _Fiasco_. On another note, I’m not sure exactly what we’re talking about here when we say “torture.” The word seems to have been watered down a bit. Keeping people awake and making them listen to crying babies and things like that don’t really fit my definition of torture. Likewise, that weird and disgusting pseudo-sexual shit they were doing doesn’t either. I will say I agree with **Der Trihs** on that much. If you humiliate someone like that they **are** going to try to get even. I certainly would. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/136 "2007-10-08T08:24:34Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] You’re kidding me right? Is there actually a (mainstream) TV show where the hero runs around torturing people? [/QUOTE] Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/137 "2007-10-08T08:38:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Yep. [/QUOTE] **Sage Rat** Sorry to sound like some kind of alien, it seems that everyone else has heard of this. Now **that** is pornographic. Considering the flap caused by Janet Jackson’s tits, I’m amazed that the FCC allows this. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/138 "2007-10-08T08:41:18Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] Keeping people awake and making them listen to crying babies and things like that don’t really fit my definition of torture. [/QUOTE] Keeping people awake long enough is perfectly capable of killing people or driving them insane; we’ve done both. It’s “virtue” is that it doesn’t leave physical marks. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/139 "2007-10-08T13:12:10Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Keeping people awake long enough is perfectly capable of killing people or driving them insane; we’ve done both. It’s “virtue” is that it doesn’t leave physical marks. [/QUOTE] **Der Trihs** I’d have to agree that it is **capable** of doing so. OTOH, I don’t think it’s very **likely** to do either of those. Testy ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631/140 "2007-10-08T16:22:07Z")
[QUOTE=Testy] **Voyager** You’re kidding me right? Is there actually a (mainstream) TV show where the hero runs around torturing people? Just going by the description, it sounds a bit warped. Never mind. Sorry to hear that people thought it was real. Kind of like the “CSI effect” I’ve heard of. The infrastructure up there is so totally fucked that people may just have to start over. As I understand it, the infrastructure was more-or-less held together by duct-tape and bailing wire and the bombing was just the final straw. Preventive maintenance just wasn’t a priority with those guys. Regards Testy [/QUOTE] I’m not an expert on this show, but here’s the way it works. Each season takes place in 24 hours during a crisis, with each hour long episode one hour of real time. Thus it is exactly a ticking clock scenario. Unfortunately, I think many Americans would just love a well defined terrorist to get tortured to get revenge for 9/11 etc. We’d hope our leaders would be more mature. As for the definition of torture, I believe there is a definition in the Geneva Convention, but the White House has been redefining it to cover only the most grievous of injuries - and then claiming that we don’t do it. I think this has been thoroughly discussed in the past. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-support-forced-interrogation-torture-of-suspected-terrorists/421631.md?page=8)