I urge you to read the Good General’s work (PDF!!)
One can debate whether it’s tacticianalism or strategery I suppose, but it’s clear that it does in fact convey advantage not only in a PR sense, but in the more base practical efficiency sense.
It might inspire elephants to fly back out of my ass
In Iraq it has inspired many more attacks than it stopped, and destroyed our credibility. If you claim that torture ever has stopped any attacks (outside of 24) please give some evidence.
And imminence is essential. Given enough time, legal means can get the information, which must be why the experts are against torture.
Perhaps they might have been under the illusion we were different, and would have been more peaceful if we had actually been different? Not everyone, of course, but enough so there would be solid intelligence on the insurgents from the population?
There are well known ways of dealing with insurgencies. Of course the Bushies, knowing better, ignored them, and we can see the result.
You might try living in the real world for a while. The fact is, crime rates are going down recently, and are significantly lower than they were 10 years ago. Cite. By your logic, videos in police cars is actually decreasing the crime rate. Actually, I’m sure it has nothing to do with it - except maybe decrease the rate of crime committed by police.
You mean they flew in? :eek: Please tell them to find some more appropriate ass, like the President’s. (That gotta hurt.)
Clearly, the object of an intelligence service is to gather and interpret intelligence. Stopping an imminent attack of some sort isn’t the purpose of intelligence gathering. All of the hypotheticals like “would you be for torture if someone were holding you children and …” are just bullshit.
None of the torture that is being defended here has been for the purpose of finding out where the atomick bomb is hidden. It’s all been about getting intelligence. I know, claims are made that many attacks have been thwarted by such methods but it just so happens that, conveniently, we can’t give specifics because we don’t want our enemies to know too much about our methods. We should believe this why?
I was referring to the 50’s not the 90’s. (Or modern day, even, if you live in Japan.)
Patriotx
Yeah, it might do all kinds of things.
Testy
Voyager
Given the time, I agree that legal means are best for everyone involved.
As far as it inspiring attacks, how do we know this? I don’t understand your “outside of 24” reference. Is that a TV show?
I’m not too sure about our “credibility” either. What are we supposed to be credible as? We invaded the place under the pretext of freeing them from Saddam and scooping-up their WMD. Well, that’s done and now we won’t go away and let them fight it out. From the POV of most of those people we’re simply one more invader.
Regards
Testy
Human nature, for one. It would be rather bizarre if it didn’t.
Yes. Very pro-torture, i’m told.
Der Trihs
Thank you, I have satellite but don’t watch much TV at all. Personally, I’d try to stay far away from anyone that caught and tortured me. They’d be about the last bunch I’d want to meet up with in the future.
Regards
Testy
24 is indeed a TV show. In the show, the hero, an agent, tortures people in ticking bomb scenarios, and it works. People who taught interrogation techniques reported concern that their young students were coming in convinced that the TV show reflected reality.
As for evidence that harsh measures lead to increased insurgency, I direct you to Fiasco Amazon entry which gives lots of evidence.
As for your comments on our credibility, I agree. Even worse, we screwed up their infrastructure and have been unable to restore it, despite spending tons of money. So we look incompetent or uncaring also.
That’s so far back as to be incomparable. Try 50 years further back - much worse. In any case, I grew up in the ‘50s, and our parents’ generation was totally convinced the world was going to hell in a handbasket. Ever hear of juvenile delinquents?
I’m talking about crime rates, not perception. If you watch the crime rate between 1960 and 1980, it triples. (Cite.)
They are decreasing again, but the good bet would be that this has to do with the three strikes laws, modern forensics, and (possibly) the legality of abortion. But what explanation do you have for the sudden rise?
Voyager
You’re kidding me right? Is there actually a (mainstream) TV show where the hero runs around torturing people? Just going by the description, it sounds a bit warped. Never mind. Sorry to hear that people thought it was real. Kind of like the “CSI effect” I’ve heard of.
The infrastructure up there is so totally fucked that people may just have to start over. As I understand it, the infrastructure was more-or-less held together by duct-tape and bailing wire and the bombing was just the final straw. Preventive maintenance just wasn’t a priority with those guys.
Unfortunately, it takes a couple of weeks to get books shipped in here and is generally a chancy and uncertain process so I’m probably not going to get to read Fiasco.
On another note, I’m not sure exactly what we’re talking about here when we say “torture.” The word seems to have been watered down a bit. Keeping people awake and making them listen to crying babies and things like that don’t really fit my definition of torture. Likewise, that weird and disgusting pseudo-sexual shit they were doing doesn’t either. I will say I agree with Der Trihs on that much. If you humiliate someone like that they are going to try to get even. I certainly would.
Regards
Testy
Yep.
Sage Rat
Sorry to sound like some kind of alien, it seems that everyone else has heard of this. Now that is pornographic. Considering the flap caused by Janet Jackson’s tits, I’m amazed that the FCC allows this.
Regards
Testy
Keeping people awake long enough is perfectly capable of killing people or driving them insane; we’ve done both. It’s “virtue” is that it doesn’t leave physical marks.
Der Trihs
I’d have to agree that it is capable of doing so. OTOH, I don’t think it’s very likely to do either of those.
Testy
I’m not an expert on this show, but here’s the way it works. Each season takes place in 24 hours during a crisis, with each hour long episode one hour of real time. Thus it is exactly a ticking clock scenario. Unfortunately, I think many Americans would just love a well defined terrorist to get tortured to get revenge for 9/11 etc. We’d hope our leaders would be more mature.
As for the definition of torture, I believe there is a definition in the Geneva Convention, but the White House has been redefining it to cover only the most grievous of injuries - and then claiming that we don’t do it. I think this has been thoroughly discussed in the past.