# Do you think Anyone can make a living gabling in casinos? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004 "2003-03-09T01:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Doctordec](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@Doctordec](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctordec)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/21 "2003-03-09T13:08:19Z")
The guys with the roulette computer in a shoe wrote a book about it called “The Eudaemonic Pie”. It’s an interesting read, I found it at the public library. They used toe switches to input the speed of the ball and wheel and calculated where the ball would land. IIRC they got to the point where they could make money doing it but I think it would be illegal today. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0595142362/103-0986632-1905449?vi=glance](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0595142362/103-0986632-1905449?vi=glance) As for card counting in blackjack, it’s getting harder all the time. I was in Vegas last week and the single deck tables were only paying 6 to 5 for blackjack and had signs stating “No Mid-Deck Entry”. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/22 "2003-03-09T15:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shijinn \* > \*\*erm, what’s that? 😕 \*\* Odds-makers, if that helps. If you’re good enough at sports betting to make ANY money, it would be better advice to just get a job as an odds-maker, and save your money. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/23 "2003-03-09T15:06:45Z")
Also, it is possible for poker players to make money, but, for the most part, virtually all very good poker players participate in the professional circuit, especially the “World Series of Poker”, which, as I recall, has a million-dollar grand prize. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/24 "2003-03-09T16:36:25Z")
Shade, the betting system you are talking about is called the Martindale system, and as you correctly point out, even a modest streak of all black or all red numbers will quickly bankrupt almost anyone’s bankroll. Casinos will never bar anyone using this betting system, which should tell you something about its success rate. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/25 "2003-03-10T01:49:13Z")
They probably encourage it 😃 I won’t even mention the gambler’s fallacy based systems. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/26 "2003-03-10T03:22:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Governor Quinn \* > \*\*Also, it is possible for poker players to make money, but, for the most part, virtually all very good poker players participate in the professional circuit, especially the “World Series of Poker”, which, as I recall, has a million-dollar grand prize. \*\* Coincidentally enough, this is on TV _right now_. And it’s a whopping $6 million dollar grand prize! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/27 "2003-03-10T03:36:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KKBattousai \* > \*\*Coincidentally enough, this is on TV _right now_. And it’s a whopping $6 million dollar grand prize! :eek: \*\* It is? What channel? ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/28 "2003-03-10T03:59:33Z")
It was on ESPN. And I was wrong about the money. It was $2m to the winner, though I know they made a big deal about the $6m figure at one point. (The aggregate amount for the top X places, maybe?) ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/29 "2003-03-10T04:01:57Z")
Well, then, who won? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/30 "2003-03-10T04:14:15Z")
I was watching that, too. They only showed part one, though. Looks like part two might be on later tonight on ESPN2, or else it’s just a repeat. The guy who was waaaaay ahead at the end of part one was some semi-amature from NYC that reminded me of a slightly skinnier George Costanza. He’d only been playing for 6 years, I think his wife said. ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/31 "2003-03-10T05:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anamorphic \* > \*\*Ken Uston died peacefully in bed in a rented apartment in Paris, not in a shallow grave in the desert, but I’m sure he would have appreciated your romanticized version! 🙂 > \*\* I’ve actually heard both versions before, but conveniently “forgot” the less fun version. Until I find out more info, he was killed by casino bosses 😉 hrh ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/32 "2003-03-10T07:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hrhomer \* > **I’ve actually heard both versions before, but conveniently “forgot” the less fun version. Until I find out more info, he was killed by casino bosses 😉** I can’t blame you… it IS much more interesting! Fun Ken Uston fact: in addition to writing several great books on blackjack, he also wrote… “[Mastering Pac-Man](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451117581/qid=1047280493/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/002-3075682-6416838?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)”! Yes, a true Renaissance man. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/33 "2003-03-10T08:21:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doctordec \* > The guys with the roulette computer in a shoe wrote a book about it called “The Eudaemonic Pie”. It’s an interesting read, I found it at the public library. They used toe switches to input the speed of the ball and wheel and calculated where the ball would land. IIRC they got to the point where they could make money doing it but I think it would be illegal today. How would they find out the speed of the ball and wheel? Sounds like a fantasy to me. ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/34 "2003-03-10T08:34:22Z")
I am surprised no one has mentioned the obvious. Go to Vegas. Take a good look around. Notice how ultra-modern & built up the place is. With Billion dollar palaces springing up out of nowhere, one has to reason that the money does no just appear out of fat-air. AFAIK, there are no charities dedicated to building these temples of capatilistic entertainment. This seems to bolster the time honored phrase “The House _Always_ Wins.” I am sure there are many people who make big scores here & there, but sooner or later, reality will catch up. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/35 "2003-03-10T11:15:46Z")
Statistically speaking, the House always wins. This does not, however, preclude any one individual from making a living gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/36 "2003-03-10T11:25:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\*How would they find out the speed of the ball and wheel? > > Sounds like a fantasy to me. \*\* I think you click a button the first, second, and third times the ball passes 0. From this you can estimate the angular speed and deceleration of the ball relative to the wheel, and hence when it will slow down enough to fall into a slot. Before this you have to do some test runs to find out how slow the ball goes when it hits the inner rim. I’m not saying I’ve any proof they did, or that you can measure these accurately enough, but they did write a book, and it is physics does provide a way to work out this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tomcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/37 "2003-03-10T14:05:19Z")
I have two friends that supported themselves for a few years after college doing small stakes poker in Colorado. They treated it like a job and made a lot of cash. They would study 10 hours a week and play for 30 or more. One guy kept great records and was bringing home $12 an hour (after taxes!) with small stakes for over a year, which is roughly $25k/year take home. Not great, but not bad for your first job out of school. -Tcat ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/38 "2003-03-10T14:14:08Z")
Frank Scobelete (author of a few gambling books) claims that it is possible to eke out wins on razor-thin profit margins (like 0.5% or less) on some video-poker machines, when you add comp bonuses to your winnings. However, there are a lot of provisos to that: 1. You have to play the “right” machines (check the payoffs, which are posted on the machine, for the best combinations of odds) 2. You have to play in the “right” locality (in some localities, video poker machines are legally the same as slot machines, which means that the odds of hitting the royal flush jackpot could be as high as 1 in a million as opposed to 1 in 40,000 for a “clean” machine) 3. You have to play at the “right” time (for example, on progressive machines, when the jackpots are high and therefore tilt the odds in your favor) 4. You have to play with the “right” method (and every single time as well) 5. And you have to play for hours at a time for that 0.5% margin to actually pay off–and you have to have a big enough bankroll to allow for “down” sessions. I’ve played in Vegas under all of those “right” conditions…and still just barely broke even. Anyone of those things going against me, and I would have lost big time, as I did on other occasions. ---
**Author:** ![wireless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@wireless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wireless)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/39 "2003-03-10T18:21:03Z")
I live in NJ and occasional trips to Atlantic City are common among large segments of the population - from grandmothers to high rollers. I’ve yet to hear a guy say he “lost”. It’s always “won” or “pretty much broke even”. I guess it’s a vestigal male competitive thing, not to admit “losing”. Anyway, this has taught me to take what people say about their winnings with a grain of salt. The only person I know who consistently makes money “gambling” is a friend from childhood who’s a top-ranked female poker players. Plays in Vegas tournaments and casually. Famous for her poker face. Expert at reading the other players. So is it gambling? Anyway, supposedly she made $70k last year (only data point I have). ---
**Author:** ![Seldon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004/40 "2003-03-10T19:51:59Z")
I live in Vegas, and I remember an article a few years back about people who do make livings gambling at the casino. However, it is not glamorous at all, and not like what you’re thinking. Mostly people who do this (legally) use the slot machines, and if they can play video poker well enough, they make around $15 an hour. And they stay there all day, everyday, just like it was a job. I can’t imagine living a life like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-anyone-can-make-a-living-gabling-in-casinos/160004.md?page=3)