# Do you think Christians look down on non-Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731 "2009-11-16T03:06:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/21 "2009-11-16T06:22:08Z")
If I recall corectly, there’s also a scene in _Pilgrim’s Progress_ where Christians get to watch sinners burn in Hell from Heaven. It’s not a ubiquitous idea in Christianity (or at least not generally expressed out loud), but it exists and has some history. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/22 "2009-11-16T06:27:00Z")
Now, if you are asking if it’s _OK_ for Christians to look down on non-Christians, I think all Christians would tell you that the answer is an unequivocal _no_. That would be the sin of pride–called the “mother of all sins” for a reason. It is the hardest to root out and will be found in the sources of all other sins. Christians are instead supposed to cultivate humility–which is the forgetting of self and of pride, considering oneself in the same way as every other person. When you really remember that other people are just as important as you are, and you are just as happy or sad about others’ accomplishments or griefs as you are about your own, without any envy or superiority, then you’re being humble. It’s hard to do for more than about a minute at a time before pride shows up again. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/23 "2009-11-16T07:05:48Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > [QUOTE=Jonathan Edwards] > > The seeing of the calamities of others tends to heighten the sense of our own enjoyments. When the saints in glory, therefore, shall see the doleful state of the damned, how will this heighten their sense of the blessedness of their own state. . . . When they shall see how miserable others of their fellow-creatures are. . . ; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, . . . and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity; how they will rejoice! Sociopathic, indeed; and yet Edwards is one of the most prominent American historical theologians (and the author of other such timeless classics as “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”) [/QUOTE] I guess that can read very differently depending on the context (I’d like to see the parts that are snipped out of the above quote) and the perspective/preconceptions of the reader. I don’t see anything in the provided text that actually says anybody will be _taking pleasure in the suffering of others_. What I see is the person in Heaven seeing the suffering of the damned and realizing, “That could have been me.” “…how they will rejoice [that they are in Heaven]”. In other words, the rejoicing is for their own eternal bliss; the rejoicing _isn’t_ over the suffering of others. Whatever the actual intent of Mr. Edwards’, we’ve seen time and again that _anybody_ can take _anything_ and twist it to suit their own ends, deliberately or as the result of misunderstanding the words. However, without knowing the full context, I will concede that perhaps Mr. Edwards’ intent was just as you’ve stated it. I can’t make a definite statement one way or the other. I _can_ say, though, that I’m another one who has never heard such a belief put forth in any church I’ve attended. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/24 "2009-11-16T07:41:37Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I guess that can read very differently depending on the context (I’d like to see the parts that are snipped out of the above quote) and the perspective/preconceptions of the reader. I don’t see anything in the provided text that actually says anybody will be _taking pleasure in the suffering of others_. What I see is the person in Heaven seeing the suffering of the damned and realizing, “That could have been me.” “…how they will rejoice [that they are in Heaven]”. In other words, the rejoicing is for their own eternal bliss; the rejoicing _isn’t_ over the suffering of others. > > Whatever the actual intent of Mr. Edwards’, we’ve seen time and again that _anybody_ can take _anything_ and twist it to suit their own ends, deliberately or as the result of misunderstanding the words. However, without knowing the full context, I will concede that perhaps Mr. Edwards’ intent was just as you’ve stated it. I can’t make a definite statement one way or the other. I _can_ say, though, that I’m another one who has never heard such a belief put forth in any church I’ve attended. Fair enough. Here is the unexpurgated passage; draw your own conclusions. [Full text is here](http://www.apuritansmind.com/JonathanEdwards/JonathanEdwards-Sermons-EndOfTheWicked.htm), if for some reason you desire to read the entire sermon. I assume it is in the public domain, as it was published in 1773. > [@Jonathan Edwards](#): > > (1.) They will rejoice in seeing the justice of God glorified in the sufferings of the damned. The misery of the damned, dreadful as it is, is but what justice requires. They in heaven will see and know it much more clearly, than any of us do here. They will see how perfectly just and righteous their punishment is, and therefore how properly inflicted by the supreme Governor of the world. They will greatly rejoice to see justice take place, to see that all the sin and wickedness that have been committed in the world is remembered of God, and has its due punishment. The sight of this strict and immutable justice of God will render him amiable and adorable in their eyes. They will rejoice when they see him who is their Father and eternal portion so glorious in his justice. > > Then there will be no remaining difficulties about the justice of God, about the absolute decrees of God, or any thing pertaining to the dispensations of God towards men. But divine justice in the destruction of the wicked will then appear as light without darkness, and will shine as the sun without clouds, and on this account will they sing joyful songs of praise to God, as we see the saints and angels do, when God pours the vials of his wrath upon antichrist; Rev. 16:57 They sing joyfully to God on this account, that true and righteous are his judgments, Rev. 19:16. They seeing God so strictly just will make them value his love the more. Mercy and grace are more valuable on this account. The more they shall see of the justice of God the more will they prize and rejoice in his love. > > (2.) They will rejoice in it, as it will be a glorious manifestation of the power and majesty of God. God will show his own greatness in executing vengeance on ungodly men. This is mentioned as one end of the destruction the ungodly: “What if God, willing to show his wrath, and make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ?” God will hereby show how much he is above his enemies. There are many now in the world, who proudly lift up themselves against God. There are many open opposers of the cause and interest of Christ. “They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.” Then God will show his glorious power in destroying these enemies. > > The power of God is sometimes spoken of as very glorious, as appearing in the temporal destruction of his enemies: Exod. 15:6, “Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power; thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.” But how much more glorious will it appear in his triumphing over, and dashing in pieces at once, all his enemies, wicked men and devils together, all his haughty foes! The power of God will gloriously appear in dashing to pieces his enemies as a potter’s vessel. Moses rejoiced and sang when he saw God glorify his power in the destruction of Pharaoh and his host at the Red Sea. But how much more will the saints in glory rejoice when they shall see God gloriously triumphing over all his enemies in their eternal ruin! Then it will appear how dreadful God is, and how dreadful a thing it is to disobey and condemn him. It is often mentioned as a part of the glory of God, that he is a terrible God. To see the majesty, and greatness, and terribleness of God, appearing in the destruction of his enemies, will cause the saints to rejoice; and when they shall see how great and terrible a being God is, how will they prize his favor! How will they rejoice that they are the objects of his love! How will they praise him the more joyfully, that he should choose them to be his children, and to live in the enjoyment of him! > > It will occasion rejoicing in them, as they will have the greater sense their own happiness, by seeing the contrary misery. It is the nature of pleasure and pain, of happiness and misery, greatly to heighten the sense of each other. Thus the seeing of the happiness of others tends to make men more sensible of their own calamities; and the seeing of the calamities of others tends to heighten the sense of our own enjoyments. > > When the saints in glory, therefore, shall see the doleful state of the damned, how will this heighten their sense of the blessedness of their own state, so exceedingly different from it! When they shall see how miserable others of their fellowcreatures are, who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity ; how will they rejoice! > This will give them a joyful sense of the grace and love of God to them; because hereby they will see how great a benefit they have by it. When they, shall see the dreadful miseries of the damned, and consider that they deserved, the same misery, and that it was sovereign grace, and nothing else, which made them so much to differ from the damned, that, if it had not been for that, they would have been in the same condition; but that God from all eternity was pleased to set his love upon them, that Christ hath laid down his life for them, and hath made them thus gloriously happy forever, O how will they admire that dying love of Christ, which has redeemed them from so great a misery, and purchased for them so great happiness, and has so distinguished them from others of their fellowcreatures! How joyfully will they sing to God and the Lamb, when they behold this! ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/25 "2009-11-16T07:52:23Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I _can_ say, though, that I’m another one who has never heard such a belief put forth in any church I’ve attended. I’m not surprised by this. I associate the view in question with Puritans/early-ish Aglo-American Protestants, which is why I’m not surprised that \*\*Dio \*\*recollects reading something about it in _The Pilgrim’s Progress_. I doubt if many today would believe or openly express this view. It’s pretty old-school angry God stuff. (Come to think of it, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear someone like Phelps express it–he and Edwards have a lot in common.) ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/26 "2009-11-16T10:09:36Z")
Yes, duh. Hopefully someone will provide the Bible verses that instruct Christians to basically exclude non-Christians. I can’t think of it right now. If you’ve ever been in an area in which the evangelicals are a majority, you’ve noticed that they _can’t stand it_ if you are succeeding without blindly submitting to them, especially if you are out-performing them. (The blind obedience is actually more important than anything in your conscience. Without that, they don’t notice one way or another.) They will seek to tear you down (they will refuse to speak to you, often even look at you) as a proof of what God does to those nasty sinners, since God isn’t getting around to tearing you down fast enough Himself. Then they confuse themselves with God for having torn you down. The dumber they are, the more pronounced this effect, in a kind of self-reinforcing way i.e. to them ‘dumber’ is better. This is where the mouth-breathing knuckle-dragger set originates. They’ll destroy the entire society if given enough rope. Someone is going to say that these aren’t ‘real’ Christians. I suppose not, but then again ‘everything is permitted’, including perverting the intended message of their own religion. My observation is that perverting the message in practice is pretty much the main event in ‘applied’ v ‘theoretical’ Christianity. Honestly, there isn’t such a thing as a ‘real’ Christian, and hate plays a more central role than they will ever admit. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/27 "2009-11-16T10:48:48Z")
There is a common Bumper Sticker I see all the time. **Christians aren’t perfect were just forgiven** ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/28 "2009-11-16T12:36:33Z")
That may be so, but the behavior of many could lead one to think that the original Greek word for ‘forgiven’ translates to either ‘denial’ or ‘weaponized, intentional incompetence’. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/29 "2009-11-16T13:29:17Z")
It’s not clear to me if this is a poll or a debate. To the extent that it’s a debate, I’d say there’s a fair amount of [hasty generalization](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization) in this thread. Undoubtedly there are some, perhaps many, maybe a majority of Christians that look down at non-Christians. But all I see here is people sharing their opinions. And of the people sharing their opinions, many appear to be conflating fundamentalist Christians with all Christians. Others draw that distinction, but still offer only anecdotes rather than any data-driven evidence. IS it possible that some selection bias is at work here? To what extent is it skewing your perception? Obviously, for a poll, these are not particularly relevant questions; for a debate, I think they are. My answer: I think many Christians do look down on non-Christians, especially if “look down,” can mean pity, condescension, superiority, or some combination thereof. I’d even be comfortable saying “most.” For my own part, having once identified as agnostic, I’m not prepared to say that anyone who has openly and honestly examined his beliefs and his world is in bad shape, spiritual-wise. Roman Catholics have the doctrine of “baptism by desire” which says that someone who doesn’t know and believe in the gospel, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his best understanding of what that means, can be saved; the assumption is that such a person would have wanted to be baptized if he had known and understood its significance. (Catechism 1290). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/30 "2009-11-16T13:31:00Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > There is a common Bumper Sticker I see all the time. > > **Christians aren’t perfect were just forgiven** …for leaving out the apostrophe in “we’re.” 🙂 Surprisingly, people seem to have radically different reactions to this bumper sticker, as seen in this [three-page thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=319964) about it, in which some interpreted it as a sign of arrogance, others as a sign of humility. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/31 "2009-11-16T15:20:25Z")
In pretty well every group, be it racial, religious, national, political or what-have-you that _people self-identify with_, members look down on those who are not part of the group - they are not as cool, as enlightened, as saved, as smart, as “real”, their history is not as significant, etc. etc. That’s pretty basic to group identity. Christians certainly are not immune from it. The more people identify with the group, the more they are willing to invest group membership with some sort of significance or dignity lacking in others. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/32 "2009-11-16T15:23:18Z")
I do think the feeling has a tendency to become more pronounced in religion, though. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/33 "2009-11-16T15:35:24Z")
And not in, say, political affiliation or philosophy? Dem vs. Rep, Communists vs. Capitalists? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/34 "2009-11-16T15:41:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I do think the feeling has a tendency to become more pronounced in religion, though. I think it’s a function of how strongly one identifies. Certainly some people identify with their religion strongly enough to kill ‘infidels’ or ‘pagans’ or whatever the term is simply for not belonging; but then, some folks these days feel that way about their nationality or race. In our society it is simply more respectable these days to allow such excessive group identification (not to the point of _killing_ others, but to the point at least of looking down on others) in certain respects (such as religion, class identification, and political affiliation) but not in others (ethnic or racial self-identification). The reason is that the former categories are to an extent self-chosen (the latter are as well to an extent, but “race” and ethnicity are popularly supposed to be immutable characteristics). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/35 "2009-11-16T15:43:27Z")
What’s the hierarchy for Evangelicals? I’d guess it would be other Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Unitarians, “other”, Islam, and atheists. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/36 "2009-11-16T15:46:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > …for leaving out the apostrophe in “we’re.” 🙂 > > Surprisingly, people seem to have radically different reactions to this bumper sticker, as seen in this [three-page thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=319964) about it, in which some interpreted it as a sign of arrogance, others as a sign of humility. One typically does not advertise their humility on a bumper sticker. Sort of defeats the purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/37 "2009-11-16T15:50:37Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > One typically does not advertise their humility on a bumper sticker. Sort of defeats the purpose. I’ll kick the ass of _anyone_ who does not acknowledge my humility. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/38 "2009-11-16T15:55:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > One typically does not advertise their humility on a bumper sticker. Sort of defeats the purpose. Expressing a sentiment that a geniunely humble person would express does not equal advertising one’s humility. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/39 "2009-11-16T15:58:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I do think the feeling has a tendency to become more pronounced in religion, though. Sure. Look at how warmly Democrats view their Republican cousins. And how willing Republicans are to ascribe to Democrats only the best motives. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731/40 "2009-11-16T16:03:03Z")
This has definitely been my experience. And it’s more than just a ‘they’re different from us’ vibe. I’ve met quite a few Christians who think that they are superior to non-Christians because of what they believe. I’ve heard claims of moral superiority because their morality comes from the true god and other people’s does not. I’ve even heard claims that people who are not Christian simply cannot be moral, because they are not Christian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-christians-look-down-on-non-christians/517731.md?page=3)