In order that the bliss of the saints may be more delightful for them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, it is given to them to see perfectly the punishment of the damned.* - Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theologica
*
You’re looking at a mistranslation. The word translated as “Hell” is “Hades” in Greek.
The Jews did not (and still don’t) have a belief in an eternal Hell. Jewish afterlife beliefs have always been somewhat sketchy and subject for debate, but essentially, the developed from being almost non-existent, to a belief that people will be resurrected on the last day, to a belief that spirits reside in a temporary underworld called Sheol, which adopted enough Hellenistic influences to contain good and bad parts, with good people going to the “Bosom of Abraham,” and bad people being punished in Tartarus. Eventually, they were all supposed to get resurrected an judged, though.
Some do, most don’t. I would say the same for atheists: some look down on religious folk (and examples are vocal on this board), and I assume most don’t.
Are you a vampire atheist? Just because you can’t see why you’re wrong doesn’t mean you’re right.
As I’ve said in a few previous discussions, I came to faith kicking and screaming (and yes, I ripped that phrase off from CS Lewis). While I did not have strong atheist leanings, I didn’t particularly want to believe in Christianity, and there were many times when I felt that God’s non-existence would have been extremely liberating. In the end though, I realized that I can’t pick my beliefs based simply on what I would prefer.
I don’t blame you for thinking that theism was my preference. After all, this particular nuance doesn’t come up very often, though I have mentioned it. Moreover, my convictions nowadays are quite different from the beliefs (or more specifically, the preferences) that I held in my younger days before I embarked on a search for truth.
Without evidence the only logical reason to choose beliefs is personal preference.
No, I’d agree with JThunder. There are many ways in which my life would be easier as an atheist, and I’ve never found death to be scary either way. Being an active believer in a faith is hard work. However, truth is true regardless of how I feel about it at any given time, and generally the harder way is the more worthwhile. So, here I stay.
I agree on that point. What certain people don’t seem to grasp, however, is that many theists believe they DO have evidence for their belief. A skeptic might think otherwise, which is why many skeptics here state “There is NO evidence for God! None! None!” as though this were unassailable fact.
For the purposes of this discussion, though; that is beside the point. The point is that, contrary to what numerous skeptics here claim, many theists do believe that they have sufficient evidence for their belief, and so their belief was not simply selected based on personal preference.
Exactly right.
Heck, all you have to do is consider the many people who were martyred because of their religious beliefs. Some skeptics would derisively claim that these people were simply seeking the emotional solace of belief in God. It seems implausible to me, however, that people would willingly allow themselves to be tortured and martyred for the sake of this solace – especially when you consider the inhuman conditions that many of them have had to endure. Their belief in God might sustain them through these times, and they might even find joy and the peace that passes all understanding, but it’s implausible to suggest that they would willingly endure such torture simply because it gave them emotional comfort.
When people dismissively say that theists believe in God because it’s an emotional crutch, it shows that they fail to understand how much hard work goes into being a faithful Christian devotee. It’s not an easy journey. That’s precisely why Jesus spoke about taking up one’s cross and following him. True worship demands sacrifice and much more.
I certainly accept that they believe it. That doesn’t mean they have evidence.
Not at all. Believing in god is easy. Living forever and never truly losing anyone you love is worth any amount of sacrifice. If you think faith is hard work that’s because you’re fighting your logical mind which is rebelling against such unfounded rubbish.
I am of the considered opinion that the majority of Christians both pity and think they’re superior to non-christians. (Though some skip the pity.) I’m also of the opinion that it’s virtually impossible to pity them without looking down on them; pity as an emotion presumes that you are doing it from a position of superiority, at least on the attribute which you’re pitying them for.
It seems to me that there are only two ways for a Christian not to imagine themselves as superior to non-christians: they can have no particular opinion about them either way, or they can think the non-christians are better. I do not think the latter happens very often, and any Christian who spares two words towards prosteletizing or mentioning their faith uninvited cannot be the former.
It should also be noted the same three categories apply to atheists, and I think it’s similarly uncommon for atheists to be opinionless about Christians. Believing onesself to be worse than the christians may be more common, though - particularly among persons who have only recently been forced to abandon Christianity.
i am christian, and i have never found anything that would cause me to abandon that.
(i could give you quite a few sappy story’s an account of why i am christian(, and not say, Buddhist) but i am shure you have all heard more than your fill of those…)
it is extremely unfortunate how maybe somewhere in the ballpark of 70% of the christians i know openly look down on non X’tians, many christians i have known are just plain jerks, probably under the mindset of ‘oh well, i am forgiven anyway, so i guess i can just do whatever the hell i feel like’
In fact most of the coolest people i have known have no religious views due to lack of proof, and i think they are my best role models (other than jesus himself) and seem to be morally stronger than i am.
To be honest, if all the information i had on christianity was how the christians acted, then i would probably not have anything to do with them.
it does not make us better in my eyes that we are going to heaven, in the same way that taking a bus to Maine makes you any better than the guy heading to Nevada, its just different destinations,
If asked how, i try my best to lead them in the right direction, but thats it.
but i digress,
i do agree that most, if not a supermajority of christians are absolute pricks.
I’m not surprised that you feel that way. As I said though, your objection is irrelevant to this particular discussion. The topic at hand (or rather, the sub-topic) isn’t whether theists are accurate in their belief or not. Rather, the question is WHY they believe as they do. Do they believe (as numerous skeptics here insist) because belief in God provides comfort? Or do they believe in God because they maintain that there is sufficiently convincing evidence, even though it would be most liberating to disbelieve in his existence?
Personally, I don’t doubt that a good number of theists belong to the first category. I simply think it’s foolish to pretend that atheists can’t possibly use the same rationale to deny his existence. I also recognize that faithful adherence to a religion (and Christianity in particular) typically does NOT produce a lifetime of comfort and emotional succor. As dangermom said, religious adherence is hard work. People who take their faith seriously typically don’t do so simply because they find it comforting, as evidenced by the thousands of believers who have undergone tremendous pain and suffering – even unto death – for the sake of their faith.
Spoken like a true atheist. I’ve already provided an extensive discussion of why it would be much more convenient NOT to be believe in God.
And yet sacrifice is seldom easy, even if the payoff is worth it.
Moreover – and I want to say this as gently as possible – your comment shows that you don’t truly grasp the Christian faith. Christianity does NOT guarantee that you will never lose anyone you love. Quite the contrary; Jesus himself warned that people may have to forsake their families for the sake of following him. It certainly does not provide any guarantee that all your family members and other loved ones will join you in eternity!
The sacrifices for Christianity are socially engineered to be easy. They involve Sunday at the social club and feeling really sorry after they ignore one of the rules.
I think you’ll find that the vast majority of Christians think they’re going to heaven.
So try as you might to pretend that the choice to be religious is hard, it certainly is not.
This is an absolute strawman.
I will grant it’s possible for some Christians – and I’ll grant it’s more possible for those Christians on the other side of the “faith vs. works” argument.
But … do you understand the faith vs. work argument?
Fella, you have no clue.
Yes, but we weren’t talking about that. Rather, we were talking about your claim that Christianity means you’ll never be separated from the ones that you love. That’s not the same thing.
Consider this. It’s not enough for the Christian to get into heaven. All his loved ones would have to do the same, and nothing in Christianity guarantees that’ll happen. I think you know this, so why do you insist that Christianity guarantees eternity with everyone that you love?
A better question would be do the vast majority of Christians understand it? From the link above 85% of believers think they will go to heaven. What is your guess about how many of those actually understand with any level of detail the faith they’ve chosen to believe? Most Christians in my experience are woefully ignorant about their faith. They believe in a fuzzy sort of way that go to church, be good and you go to heaven. And when their dad dies, they think, “well he was a good man, he’s in heaven.”
Christianity is easy. It’s all about the softening of hard realities. There are strong Christians, but you don’t have to be strong in the least to be one.
Think for a second. 85% of Christians believe they’re going to heaven. Of that group, what percentage do you think assume that their loved ones are going to heaven?
The vast majority of Christians think heaven is going to be a huge high-school reunion and dear uncle Larry with the brain tumor will be there and we’ll talk about old times.