# Do you think colleges should tailor programs to actual job applicability? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 12, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854 "2009-09-12T22:35:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/21 "2009-09-13T16:41:26Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > No, because that’s the job of the high school guidance counselor. AT some time BEFORE you get into college someone should be saying "Biology, huh? Except that, of the people I knew who entered college with a concrete plan regarding some sort of career path, just about every single one changed their major, to something wildly unrelated. Take my one friend, who entered in the school of public policy and was all determined to be a lawyer. Today he has a PhD in Theater, and is a professor./set designer. Let’s fact it, high school students don’t really know what is out there. And even if they do have some inkling about the hundreds of subjects taught at universities but not at the high school level, they don’t know if they enjoy it or not - or are any good at it whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/22 "2009-09-13T16:53:20Z")
I also disagree with college programs being tailored to the job market. Myself, I studied a wide variety of subjects and have degrees in very different fields. I strove hard to learn as much as I could in any class I took and certainly would not have gone out into the world at large if I’d gone after something I thought could pay me a lot simply to stay in my backyard stateside. A well-rounded education is what I vote for. I’m reminded, too, of one friend who went through at least five majors. One was computer engineering. Another was philosophy. I have no idea what he finally graduated in, but the last I heard, he was a five-star chef. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/23 "2009-09-13T17:12:11Z")
I almost think I could teach my students anything–baseball umpiring, the history of the solder gun, and musicology of the Phillipines–because they’re not going to use a damned thing I teach them. What they get out of the courses, primarily, is learning how to learn, to be responsible, to meet deadlines, to follow instructions, and most of all how to figure things out on their own. It’s practice for real life. When I teach required course in writing research papers, am I supposing that most of them will ever write a research paper in real life? No, but all of them will have to follow some system of presenting ideas and this is practise for them in learning one very complex system, contained in MLA’s 200-page guidebook, and applying that. Get a few A’s in writing courses and you’ll be able to follow other systems for the rest of your life, which is a hell of a lot more practical than teaching them how one company or one industry wants the job done. They’re almost certainly not going to be working in that company or industry the rest of their lives, and the company and industry make no assurances that their own standards won’t change in that time, anyway. From my point of view, if I’m going to responsible for training any industry’s future workers to their specifications, then I want a cut of the future profits. A large cut. If that offer isn’t attractive, then allow me to say this to industry: Fuck you. We’ll teach them what we think they need to know, and you can provide specific training at your own damned expense. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/24 "2009-09-13T18:07:34Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Except that, of the people I knew who entered college with a concrete plan regarding some sort of career path, just about every single one changed their major, to something wildly unrelated. > > Take my one friend, who entered in the school of public policy and was all determined to be a lawyer. Today he has a PhD in Theater, and is a professor./set designer. > > Let’s fact it, high school students don’t really know what is out there. And even if they do have some inkling about the hundreds of subjects taught at universities but not at the high school level, they don’t know if they enjoy it or not - or are any good at it whatsoever. But its the exercise that is important, the thought process of “ok, what are you going to DO with that degree.” If someone guides you through that thought process once, you should be able to say “ok, public policy and J.D. nope - Theater, yes.” My exploration was around becoming an M.D. I determined I was poorly suited to be a medical student (I’d probably have been a decent doctor). I ended up with a first degree in Film. But, because I understood the process, when I chose Film I knew that my job prospects in Film would likely involve no film job, or starvation wages. I ended up in Marketing with my Film degree (industrial video production coordination), and from there into IT. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/25 "2009-09-13T21:12:31Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Well, first off, I’d question your distinction between college and “the real world.” College is part of the real world. Reading and writing and thinking and experimenting are as real as any other human endeavor, and a student who has dedicated four years to these pursuits _does_ have experience doing something valuable and important. Well yes, college is part of reality. It’s also a very sheltered environment. College is a lot more forgiving and structured than the professional world. You can take any class you want. You have housing and a meal plan. You generally know what you have to do to succeed in any class. The professional world isn’t like that. The smartest doesn’t always get an “A”. Everyone doesn’t advance to the next grade automatically. > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > As for educating students “above their ability” – what does that even mean? By definition, it’s not possible to educate students above their ability, although in a perfect world we’d educate them to the _best_ of their ability. It means that their education gives them a false sense of how important and valuable they are. They come out of college and think they know everything and are going to take over the world. Then they get upset because they are treated (rightfully so) that they don’t know as much as they think they do by people who ALSO have degrees AND 10+ years experience. > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > I’m also a bit confused by your reference to turning students into “ivory tower intellectuals with opinions on everything,” because the first thing students should learn in any good college class is _not_ to toss off opinions without support. Part of the point of a college education is to think critically about everything you think you know, and to learn how to reject your most cherished beliefs if it turns out that the evidence doesn’t support them. This is a tall order, and many students learn this imperfectly or not at all, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to teach it. This sounds like it should be about a half-semester course. Critical Thinking 101 or something. What does one learn during the rest of their 4 years? A good enducation does both. It prepares you with real-world skills as well as the “soft” classes to help you figure out why and how you should be using those skills. I graduated with an engineering degree which gives you a strong background in math and the sciences. But I also had extensive courses in the arts, english, economics, psychology, political science and so on to round it out. > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > I’m not in any way trying to disparage trade or vocational education, by the way; quite the opposite. I think it’s an excellent choice for many, many students, and I wish parents, high school counselors, and employers would treat it as a serious and respectable choice, instead of automatically steering students toward universities even if they haven’t got the interest or aptitude for a university education. But that’s my point. It’s an attitude that university is only a place for “high minded intellectuals” to pursue purely academic interests or something. Or that a college man doesn’t do vocational labor and such. There is also a difference between a trade or vocation and a professional career. Trades tend to be more task oriented. You basically learn how to install HVAC or be a dental hygenist or something. Professions have tasks that must be learned to, but they require highly educated people with the abilities to do as you described who can grow their profession and take it in new directions. An CPA accountant for example, doesn’t just grind through quarterly financial statements. Many of them do debate and think critically about the ethical and business implications of how companies do their reporting and they work to shape the requirements accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/26 "2009-09-13T21:56:41Z")
College is not an apprenticeship. When you get out , you still have to be taught your job. But college should make you intellectually curious, a fan of reading ,a studier and able to communicate. Hopefully you are aware of the finer things in life like great books. You should be aware of how the political system works too. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/27 "2009-09-13T23:13:16Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Reading and writing and thinking and experimenting are as real as any other human endeavor, and a student who has dedicated four years to these pursuits _does_ have experience doing something valuable and important. As another person who works in higher ed, I think we (as a field) need to do a better of job of explicitly showing _how_ reading and writing and thinking and experimenting translate into job skills. I know we are always going on about “critical thinking” but sometimes I get the feeling that most every prof assumes the students picked this up in some other class or through osmosis. And then everyone on campus is shocked :eek: when the media, parents, and Congress are going on about how college fails to prepare people for the real world. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/28 "2009-09-13T23:54:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > College is not an apprenticeship. When you get out , you still have to be taught your job. But college should make you intellectually curious, a fan of reading ,a studier and able to communicate. Hopefully you are aware of the finer things in life like great books. You should be aware of how the political system works too. That’s why employers often expect you to spend your summers doing internships. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/29 "2009-09-14T00:47:46Z")
> [@the\_first\_supraliminal](#): > > .. or at least advise starry eyed freshmen that they are not being prepared for the world at large, but the narrow slice that is academe. I kind of do. I was a radio-tv-film major at a very minor college, and it was almost never mentioned what it would take to get a real job in this field, which I never did. The program concentrated on theoretics, but had little in the way of hands-on practicality. Admittedly, it was caught in the middle of the great shift to digital/electronic production and post-production, but I wish that it had made clear the realities of working in the industry and the skills needed for different kinds of jobs. That industry is not at all like nursing or engineering or accounting, in which a BS will grant you enough interviews to get a job. It’s a very different beast. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854/30 "2009-09-14T07:45:27Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > No. The purpose of college is to develop skills outside of what might be needed to get a job: analytical ability, the ability to express your ideas, etc. These are much more useful than skills for a particular career, especially since the requirements change over time. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Yes and no. > But college is not trade school. If you want to be a dental assistant or whatever, there are programs for that. > > And ultimately, any college degree is going to teach things that are useful on the job. Any liberal arts major is going to get a good grounding in critical thinking, text analysis and writing. These skills are essential to most jobs. I think these attitudes, while prevalent and correct in a limited way, also encourage a certain intellectual laziness in objectively assessing college curriculum. Once you enter into this attitude, there seems to be a hostility towards using standard market analysis tools to determine the degree of market-product fit. Too often, useless & even detrimental teaching are justified under this vague umbrella. What I think is that there are some rather important areas that are being woefully underserved in the current college curriculum and ruthless cuts need to be made in order to accommodate them if we are to keep with the standard 4 year degree. I’ve had quite a few friends just recently graduate into a shockingly poor job market & it’s surprising to me some of the gaping gaps in their knowledge that really need to be plugged ASAP if they’re to have much hope of gaining employment. Among them: [ul] [li] **The importance of marketing, promotion & perception** : That marketing is a dirty word in some circles is a measure of how misunderstood it is. Marketing shouldn’t be about putting lipstick on a pig but it should be about how to present things in a way that is forceful and compelling. It’s about the importance of weaving stories and bringing people into your vision. This is rarely talked about in any degree program and largely abstracted away as an irrelevancy whereas in real life, I would say it’s crucially important and, in many fields, more important that the actual job function itself.[/li][li] **interpersonal skills & office politics** : Again, that office politics is such a dirty word is an indication of how misunderstood it is. A large part of any job is navigating around the bureaucracy and understanding how to get things done. This isn’t an unpleasant side task, this is how any & all work gets done. If you choose to be high minded and stay out of it, you’re going to fail and you’re not even going to understand why you’re failing. Again, most college courses don’t even broach the topic.[/li][li] **The current state of the field** : Basically, market intel into what’s going on with your degree. A lot of the people I know graduate without even really knowing who has what problems that their degree might help solve. They don’t know which of the skills they learnt in courses are heavily sought after & which are considered impractical.[/li][li] **Basic microeconomic analysis** : How to evaluate a corporate structure, understand the key fundamentals, where that company fits in the marketplace, what their direction is, what are considered core competencies etc. All of this is valuable information that’s required to be effective at your job yet so many people don’t understand it.[/li][/ul] Now, the standard refrain is that this stuff is best suited to “on the job training” and I think that’s bullshit. We’ve been trained to believe this because colleges aren’t set up to effectively teach these courses which means that the average person, at best, only receives an ad hoc, trial & error lesson in most of these fields. But each of these areas is a solid academic discipline with skills & knowledge that can & should be most effectively taught in a classroom setting. I’m lucky to have diverse interests and so I’ve cobbled together a lot of what I’ve learned through readings in economics, psychology, marketing & business but it really shouldn’t require that much work to master these areas. The only reason why these courses aren’t taught is because they don’t fit under the paradigm of a “liberal arts education” where work is abstracted away into a clean, rational application of skill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-colleges-should-tailor-programs-to-actual-job-applicability/509854.md?page=1)