# Do you think it is reasonable for taxpayers to pay $113 BILLION a year for Illegals/Anchor Babies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650 "2011-07-19T23:59:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/21 "2011-07-20T01:10:54Z")
“We liberals”, Cyclone? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14037357](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14037357) You’ve already posted on this, by the way. And had the thread closed. I see you were invited to open it in GD. [http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Federation\_for\_American\_Immigration\_Reform](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform) Notice the source for that is from a hate group. Here is the ‘study’ he is quoting from. > **[Legislative Updates - LEGACY US Immigration Articles and News | Federation...](https://www.fairus.org/news/legislative-updates?page=NewsArticle&id=23198&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1741)** > > Read more Legislative Updates - LEGACY articles and news from the team at Federation for American Immigration Reform. I see that FAIR counts american citizens in its numbers, because they come from immigrant parents. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/22 "2011-07-20T01:14:21Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > I will tell you this. I joined this site to specifically ask this question. I know the position of the Democratic Party on this issue. I am personally unclear about my own opinion. Every thread I have seen on this subject makes illegals out to be the worst people on the planet. I believe we know there are good and bad in ALL groups. > > However, I do not believe the results of the previous thread here on this subject. The number that support the $113 Billion a year to illegals is extraordinarily high with Americans losing homes, jobs, and Medicare on the chopping block. I am not convinced that I am getting straight answers here. The opinion of middle American liberals is what I am looking for, not political propaganda. > > I’ll keep reading as long as folks keep posting. I must say I sense some impractical attitude here that I do not care for. You yourself, silenus, are rushing into name-calling which means to me you are out of rational arguments to support yourself. These babies are citizens. Any child born in this country is a citizen. So should we spend $113 billion a year to help these citizens? Yes, yes we should, and happily ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/23 "2011-07-20T01:16:18Z")
Cyclone is just a practical liberal who sees the conflict of interests between native white and black workers and the illegals. Indeed by all logic as I’ve pointed out in other threads the two groups should be in opposing political parties (whichever way the chips fall). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/24 "2011-07-20T01:17:22Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > . . . but I can do without the adolescent sarcasm. Sarcasm is the stock in trade of this web site. Posting alarmist messages that one appears to have not thoroughly researched in multiple fonts and colors is a good way to elicit that sarcasm from other posters. Stick to your topic and leave out the personal commentary. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/25 "2011-07-20T01:18:05Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > Are you saying we can all forget about the debt ceiling as it is merely propaganda? Actually, yes. The current debate isn’t really even about the debt ceiling per se but about government spending, which should have been (and was) debated when it came time to pass a budget. The current shenanigans are a combination of posturing by politicians and simple idiocy by many citizens. As for the original question, I do apologize about the snark. Your OP had all the classic signs of a proselytizer, and I may have been premature in the sarcasm. The original article you cite has some weaknesses. It simply assumes illegal immigrants take resources without contributing anything back (save a token mention of taxes paid). But taxes aren’t the only way a worker contributes to an economy. The work they perform certainly contributes to something. They also live somewhere - mostly renting. And they buy food, clothes, and other things. That helps props up the local economy. On the flip side, there’s the argument that without illegal immigrants, legal residents would fill the gap. Maybe. I rather doubt it. No evidence, but my own opinion is that they fill a large enough role in the economy that they could not be easily replaced and their absence would depress our economy. They really do perform much of the work that would not be done by citizens. Are my neighbors suddenly going to pay for the much, much more expensive lawn service? Or do it themselves or give a neighborhood kid $20? Are they going to hire the more expensive cleaning services or handyman work vs the day laborers? Sure, some of that work will go to citizens, but it’s not as much as that article assumes. Maybe they are still a net drain on the economy. Maybe not. But it’s not as cut and dried as that article would have any of us believe. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/26 "2011-07-20T01:21:08Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Saying illegals are a net plus to the economy has to be at least somewhat controversial. No one has (yet) argued that they’re a net plus. They’ve just pointed out that the OP’s 113 billion number is misleading, if for no other reason than because it doesn’t factor in what the illegals are paying back into the system. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/27 "2011-07-20T01:21:49Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Yes, of course America’s first concern should be to her own citizens _no matter who their parents are_. Why should we be the world’s personal rice paddy. We’re already the world’s policeman. Send the parents back to their country of origin and let them enter legally like everybody else had to. ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/28 "2011-07-20T01:22:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Who gives a shit? I don’t base my ethical system off a popularity poll. I base my opinion on votes, and who can win an election, Duh. The liberal agenda will go nowhere if Michele Bachmann becomes POTUS. > [@Miller](#): > > Are you sure those are all American children, and not just children in America? In other words, how many of those kids are illegal immigrants themselves, or natural born citizens who happen to be the children of illegal immigrants? Gee, I don’t know. Do you think an illegal alien child will experience starvation differently than than a black or anglo child? I watched a special on starvation in Somalia, evidently the feeling of starvation is a lot like what you would experience if you drank a quart of bleach. Sounds like a good time for all? :mad: > [@Miller](#): > > You’re creating a false dichotomy. The fact that we spend money on illegal immigrants (at what ever price tag) doesn’t mean we’re putting them before American citizens. 113 billion dollars (if that’s an accurate figure, which I doubt) is less than 3% of the federal budget. Where do you think that other 97% of the budget is going? Do you suppose it’s going to American citizens? If we’re spending 97% of the budget on American citizens, and 3% on illegal immigrants, by what measure can you claim we’re putting illegal immigrants ahead of American citizens? I do not recall who said this, but it works for me. If your are going to have house guests, the first thing you do is clean up your own house. This is a practical thought Americans should be considering. America is a mess. Less than half our people voted in the last election. And last week U. S. House Republicans attacked legislation on energy saving light bulbs, that their own party turned into law under George W. You think we might have a little problem with priorities? > [@Miller](#): > > If you’re not challenging the citizenship of anchor babies (and I have a great deal of trouble believing you thought this was the “polite term” for them), why are you complaining about spending money on them? I am the kind of guy who says the “n” word instead of the word itself. I would prefer not use the extremely insulting words used used frequently and publicly for anchor babies in the southwestern United States. I would call the use of those three words bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/29 "2011-07-20T01:27:41Z")
$113 billion a year seems a tad high of an estimate. Looking at their numbers, I noticed they had Federal income tax from illegals as -$2,302,800,000, yes that’s a negative sign. Turns out they get this by using these estimations: Net Income Taxes Collected from Illegal Aliens Income Tax $1,635,000,000 EITC -$1,777,800,000 Child Tax Credit -$2,160,000,000 Subtotal -$2,302,800,000 How do they think illegal aliens are making $2.3 billion a year off of federal taxes? They decide that > [@](#): > > The number of illegal alien workers filing tax returns to receive the EITC subsidy can only be estimated. We assume that the half of the illegal alien workers who are in the underground economy are not claiming the > EITC. Of the roughly 2.7 million households represented by illegal workers in the above-ground economy, there is likely to be reluctance to file for the EITC if the Social Security Number (SSN) they are using is fictitious or stolen. The most likely case in which an illegal alien worker in the above-ground economy will claim the EITC is when the SSN is real rather than fabricated and belongs to a child in that family. Immigrant assistance agencies that assist in tax filings may encourage EITC claims with or without knowing that the claimant is an illegal alien. So based on no evidence, they’ve decided to estimate that 1/2 of all illegal aliens are filing income tax returns using fake or improper SSNs, and scamming Uncle Sam out of two bills a year by filing for EITC and child tax credit returns. Hey, pulling numbers out of your ass works for me. I’ve decided illegal aliens contribute $1 trillion a year in federal taxes. How did I get such a number? Well I estimated. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/30 "2011-07-20T01:27:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No one has (yet) argued that they’re a net plus. They’ve just pointed out that the OP’s 113 billion number is misleading, if for no other reason than because it doesn’t factor in what the illegals are paying back into the system. Finagle certainly implied they were in post 17. Maybe I’m reading his quote, surely put in there to bolster that argument, incorrectly? His quote: > [@](#): > > Ford, of Middle Tennessee State University, said a majority of economists agree that illegal immigrants are a net benefit for the U.S. economy. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/31 "2011-07-20T01:31:46Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > I have never said a negative word about anchor babies, I thought that was the polite term. “Anchor Baby” is a loaded buzzphrase meant to convey the notion that somehow illegally present aliens deliberately bear forth in US soil in order to use those children as an “anchor” to either prevent deportation or give themselves a leg up on any future formal immigration procedure or amnesty. The polite term would be “… and their American-born children.” Just for reference. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/32 "2011-07-20T01:34:45Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Not the debt but the deficit would be drastically reduced. Ignore the wars (I’ll call a spade a spade, thank you very much) and just look at the tax cuts. Or at least the US Treasury [thinks](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/1206/What-will-deal-on-Bush-tax-cuts-mean-for-the-federal-deficit) so. Note that even if $3.9 trillion is an overestimate, that’s not a small amount of money. > > Is this controversial at all? I thought the debate about the Bush tax cuts was ideological - not that they wouldn’t produce government revenue but preserving them would or would not be beneficial to the general economy. Or has the story on the purpose of the cuts _also_ changed? Using your post, the Bush tax cuts (only reinstated for those making over $250k, as your boy Hopey McChange wants to do?) only seems to result in $32b in revenue. The deficit is $1.4 Trillion. Seems like a rounding error. > [@](#): > > Thus, on the basis of current law, in 2011 the extension of the Bush tax cuts to all Americans would result in a $200 billion to $300 billion cost to the US Treasury compared to what had been expected. Extending the cuts to households making over $250,000 a year accounts for $32 billion of that. If your argument is that all the cuts should be rescinded, as nobody who is anybody in Congress has suggested, then that’s still [less than half](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/economy/26deficit.html) of the way there ($3.9T out of over $9T). PS I don’t call them wars because a war isn’t a war until Congress says so. And they haven’t said so since WWII. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/33 "2011-07-20T01:34:46Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > I have never said a negative word about anchor babies, I thought that was the polite term. The polite term would be “… and their American-born children.” Just for reference. “Anchor Baby” is a loaded buzzphrase meant to convey the notion that somehow illegally present aliens will deliberately bear forth in US soil in order to use those children as an “anchor” to either prevent deportation or give themselves a leg up on any future formal immigration procedure or amnesty. ETA: Wait, for a moment there it looked like this posted twice then one was gone… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/34 "2011-07-20T01:44:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why should we be the world’s personal rice paddy. We’re already the world’s policeman. Send the parents back to their country of origin and let them enter legally like everybody else had to. You do realize that is current law, yes? It doesn’t matter if one of your children is an American Citizen, if you are in this country illegally you will be deported. Anyone who uses the term “anchor baby” is engaged in propaganda. A baby born in the United States is an American citizen and is entitled to live in the United States. Their parents are not. The parents can be deported, and the child can either go with the parents back to the parent’s home country, or the child can stay here. Of course, since there are already something like 12 million people here illegally, we’re gonna have to step up our game to even make a dent. If we declare that children born in the United States don’t become citizens if their parents were here illegally, we can easily increase that 12 million number with the stroke of a pen. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/35 "2011-07-20T01:45:24Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > “Anchor Baby” is a loaded buzzphrase meant to convey the notion that somehow illegally present aliens deliberately bear forth in US soil in order to use those children as an “anchor” to either prevent deportation or give themselves a leg up on any future formal immigration procedure or amnesty. Which is true in many cases. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/36 "2011-07-20T01:47:29Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > PS I don’t call them wars because a war isn’t a war until Congress says so. And they haven’t said so since WWII. How about the Revolutionary War and the Civil War? Congress never said so on either of those. Or do you call them the Revolutionary conflict and the Civil conflict? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/37 "2011-07-20T01:49:01Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > as your boy Hopey McChange Nope. Neither Hopey McChange nor President Obama are my boys. No more than President Bush was. Bill C was my boy, but I was raised in Arkansas, so that’s only to be expected. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > The deficit is $1.4 Trillion. I guess I should have been more clear. I don’t think the Bush tax cuts should have been enacted _at all_. Maybe we’d still have had a major recession, but we’d be in a better position balance sheet wise if they had never happened. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > If your argument is that all the cuts should be rescinded, as nobody who is anybody in Congress has suggested, then that’s still [less than half](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/economy/26deficit.html) of the way there ($3.9T out of over $9T). Well, never passing the tax cuts aside, I’ll take $3.9T out of $9T vs $0T out of $9T. Congress is in a bind, I guess. I’m supposing most of them know that letting the tax cuts expire will help in the long run but also bound to be unpopular. I usually hope (but rarely expect) Congress will do the right thing, even if incredibly unpopular. Unrealistic, I know. FYI, this would raise my federal tax rate. Yes, I’m advocating increasing my own tax burden if it helps get our collective asses. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/38 "2011-07-20T02:09:09Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Which is true in many cases. Maybe if they’re willing to wait 18 years. Minors can’t sponsor residency applications, even for their parents. And if the parents get deported, the “anchor baby” goes too. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/39 "2011-07-20T02:16:44Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > I will tell you this. I joined this site to specifically ask this question. I know the position of the Democratic Party on this issue. I am personally unclear about my own opinion. Every thread I have seen on this subject makes illegals out to be the worst people on the planet. I believe we know there are good and bad in ALL groups. > > However, I do not believe the results of the previous thread here on this subject. The number that support the $113 Billion a year to illegals is extraordinarily high with Americans losing homes, jobs, and Medicare on the chopping block. I am not convinced that I am getting straight answers here. The opinion of middle American liberals is what I am looking for, not political propaganda. > > I’ll keep reading as long as folks keep posting. I must say I sense some impractical attitude here that I do not care for. You yourself, silenus, are rushing into name-calling which means to me you are out of rational arguments to support yourself. Are kids born in America citizens or “anchor babies”? Your answer to this question will determine whether you are a racist asshole or an honest seeker of information. I know which bet my money is on… ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650/40 "2011-07-20T02:24:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > How about the Revolutionary War and the Civil War? Congress never said so on either of those. Or do you call them the Revolutionary conflict and the Civil conflict? :rolleyes: Good Lord. Read the [constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-it-is-reasonable-for-taxpayers-to-pay-113-billion-a-year-for-illegals-anchor-babies/589650.md?page=3)