# Do you think Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 12, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572 "2019-08-12T19:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/81 "2019-08-14T20:23:06Z")
I have very little doubt that he committed suicide. He tried it before, and it’s a common response when a person in a powerful position is brought down with no hope of escaping the consequences. I recognize that it’s possible that someone was convinced either to look the other way or create a scenario where his suicide was easier to facilitate. But the more likely explanation is incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/82 "2019-08-15T04:54:14Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > There are reports now that the two guards who were assigned to watch Epstein fell asleep for more than three hours, then falsified their reports. They have been placed on administrative leave and face possible criminal charges and the warden has been reassigned. I do hope the guards are prosecuted to the fullest extent. I’d be watching these guard’s bank accounts for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/83 "2019-08-15T06:10:31Z")
Either he was murdered, or he was given the means and opportunity to kill himself by powerful people who wanted him dead. It’s all the same to me, and I absolutely 100% believe one of those two things happened. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/84 "2019-08-15T07:22:26Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Either he was murdered, or he was given the means and opportunity to kill himself by powerful people who wanted him dead. It’s all the same to me, and I absolutely 100% believe one of those two things happened. Why? Why is it so difficult to believe that a man who Has lost all his power and influence, Whose rich friends have deserted him, Who was denied bail and was facing the rest of his life doing hard time, where he would be reviled by staff and convicts alike, and was staying in a notoriously understaffed and incompetently run jail, Why is it so hard to believe he killed himself? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/85 "2019-08-15T07:29:25Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Either he was murdered, or he was given the means and opportunity to kill himself by powerful people who wanted him dead. It’s all the same to me, and I absolutely 100% believe one of those two things happened. 100% is a pretty high confidence level. What is the evidence that leads to you believe this? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/86 "2019-08-15T08:06:34Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I’d be watching these guard’s bank accounts for a while. Why? Prison guard isn’t a career many people aspire to; it’s a job people fall into because their other plans didn’t work out. Typical features include low pay, lousy working conditions, boredom, lots of paperwork, dealing with unpleasant people, and lack of accomplishment: at the end of the shift, you usually can’t say you made people’s lives better or achieved some goal, but merely got through to the end of another tedious shift. Those kinds of job features tend to drive away people who are or want to be enthusiastic or motivated about their work. Who’s left? Think of DMV clerks with even less motivation to care what their “customers” think, for whom fudging the records to cover up sleeping on the job is easier to get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/87 "2019-08-15T09:30:47Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Either he was murdered, or he was given the means and opportunity to kill himself by powerful people who wanted him dead. For what reason? If anything, the fact that Epstein is dead makes it _easier_ to prosecute anyone he had dirt on, since the dead have no expectation of privacy under the Fourth Amendment and there’s nothing to stop the feds from sifting through everything he owned in search of evidence. Furthermore, was his first suicide attempt _also_ a conspiratorial plot that they somehow screwed up? Or did he try to kill himself for real the first time, and then have a change of heart before he was murdered? If his first hanging attempt was staged, why would they try to stage it the exact same way a second time? If it were a plot, why would the authorities - who presumably are in on it - be openly providing the evidence that’s lead you to believe it was staged? Why make it a hanging when there are far less detectible ways of staging a death? ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/88 "2019-08-15T09:51:47Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Suicide proof rooms and sheets with 24/7 hi-tech surveillance by highly trained staff is just a thing out of the movies. On Amazon I see many security cameras for well under $100. Even if it costs several hundred, plus hundreds for storage, that is a trivial cost when the investigation and trial were going to cost millions. Video surveillance wouldn’t necessarily stop him from committing suicide, but it would stop someone from murdering him and staging it as a suicide, and if he did kill himself it would stop us from wondering if it was a murder. _Everyone_ I saw discussing this case predicted something like this would happen. It’s grossly negligent that that no steps were taken to stop it. It means the management of the prison was either completely incompetent, or complicit in his death _and_ preventing us from ever knowing for sure how he died. > [@Chefguy](#): > > And this is the most easily believed and most probable cause of it all. Having stood late night watches in the military after a hard day’s work, I know that sleep just overcomes you at some point. I’m sure it wasn’t the first time these guys slept while on duty, and not the first time they fudged the records. This time it will cost them their jobs. They aren’t supposed to stand night watch _after_ a hard day’s work. They’re supposed to be paid a full time salary for doing it and then sleep during the day. Again, paying a few guards is trivial compared to the overall cost of this case. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/89 "2019-08-15T10:33:59Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > On Amazon I see many security cameras for well under $100. Even if it costs several hundred, plus hundreds for storage, that is a trivial cost when the investigation and trial were going to cost millions. I can see you’ve never had to deal with government bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/90 "2019-08-15T10:37:06Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Why? > > Why is it so difficult to believe that a man who > > Has lost all his power and influence, > Whose rich friends have deserted him, > Who was denied bail and was facing the rest of his life doing hard time, where he would be reviled by staff and convicts alike, > and was staying in a notoriously understaffed and incompetently run jail, > > Why is it so hard to believe he killed himself? My first question would be, why was he put in a notoriously understaffed and incompetently run jail? He wasn’t just some run of the mill pervert. He was a pervert who may very well have had very serious, life destroying information about some of the most powerful people in the world. He was, by a mile, America’s most high profile prisoner. So why put him in a notorious shit hole prison run by idiots? My second question would be, why _keep_ him there after his unsuccessful suicide attempt? I could, perhaps, _maybe_ understand putting America’s most notorious criminal in a shit jail run by a skeleton crew of morons before he showed suicidal tendencies. It’s not what I would’ve done, but mistakes happen. I can’t understand keeping him there after he tried to off himself. This brings me to my third question. Apparently, Epstein was taken off suicide watch and placed on something called an ‘Elevated Risk’ watch, which is like halfway between regular watch and suicide watch. This is utterly inexcusable. Again, this wasn’t just any prisoner. It was Jeffrey Epstein! If a reviled criminal who everyone wants to see punished, and who may have dirt on actual world leaders tries to kill himself then you keep him on suicide watch! He shouldn’t have been able to blow his nose without a guard noticing, let alone hang himself with a bedsheet. Fourthly, it recently came to light that one of the guards on duty the night Epstein died wasn’t a qualified prison guard. Are you kidding me? You remember in The Godfather when Solozzo wants to assassinate Don Corleone? He pays the Don’s regular bodyguard to “call in sick” because he knows that Fredo will have to guard him instead. Again, this wasn’t just any old prisoner! If you’re in charge of watching Jeffrey Epstein, you make sure your top men are watching him around the clock. You don’t take him off suicide watch and then give custody to some temp. This is so staggeringly obvious that I simply can’t hand wave it away as mere incompetence. Like everything else about this case, it just doesn’t pass the smell test. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/91 "2019-08-15T10:40:44Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Like everything else about this case, it just doesn’t pass the smell test. Your imagination of what and how the prison system “should” do is not reflected by the reality of prisons in America. He was put in a notoriously understaffed and underfunded jail because _all_ the jails are notoriously understaffed and underfunded. He was kept there after the first suicide attempt because there wasn’t any better place to put him. He was taken off suicide watch because his legal team requested it. And the guard wasn’t qualified because there aren’t enough qualified guards. High-profile prisoners only get VIP treatment in movies. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/92 "2019-08-15T10:48:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Your imagination of what and how the prison system “should” do is not reflected by the reality of prisons in America. > > He was put in a notoriously understaffed and underfunded jail because _all_ the jails are notoriously understaffed and underfunded. He was kept there after the first suicide attempt because there wasn’t any better place to put him. He was taken off suicide watch because his legal team requested it. And the guard wasn’t qualified because there aren’t enough qualified guards. > > High-profile prisoners only get VIP treatment in movies. I’m sorry, but I simply don’t believe this can possibly be true. Do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/93 "2019-08-15T10:54:57Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I’m sorry, but I simply don’t believe this can possibly be true. Do you have a cite for this? Would you consider Chelsea Manning to be a high-profile prisoner? [She was able to make two suicide attempts despite being on a stricter watch regimen than Epstein was, and was kept in solitary in the same facility afterward.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning#Suicide_attempts) If the military can’t keep a convicted spy under military arrest from trying to kill themselves without outside assistance, then it seems unlikely that a civilian-staffed jail could do a better job with a mid-level white collar crook. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/94 "2019-08-15T11:02:55Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Why? > > Prison guard isn’t a career many people aspire to; it’s a job people fall into because their other plans didn’t work out. Typical features include low pay, lousy working conditions, boredom, lots of paperwork, dealing with unpleasant people, and lack of accomplishment: at the end of the shift, you usually can’t say you made people’s lives better or achieved some goal, but merely got through to the end of another tedious shift. Those kinds of job features tend to drive away people who are or want to be enthusiastic or motivated about their work. Who’s left? > > Think of DMV clerks with even less motivation to care what their “customers” think, for whom fudging the records to cover up sleeping on the job is easier to get away with. You were responding to a comment about watching the guards’ bank accounts, and it seems you proved the point that you are refuting. The implication was that someone paid some guards handsomely to look the other way. For the reasons you metion I’ve no doubt that they are vulnerable to bribes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/95 "2019-08-15T11:06:29Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > You were responding to a comment about watching the guards’ bank accounts, and it seems you proved the point that you are refuting. The implication was that someone paid some guards handsomely to look the other way. For the reasons you metion I’ve no doubt that they are vulnerable to bribes. …So did they pay _all_ the guards, from the gate all the way up to his cell? Or just those two? And what about the contractors - janitorial staff, cafeteria, etc? And why’d they bother planting explosives in Tower 7 anyway? ---
**Author:** ![EarlGrayHot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@EarlGrayHot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EarlGrayHot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/96 "2019-08-15T13:17:17Z")
The guards were supposed to check on him every thirty minutes and they didn’t but even that would have given plenty of time to of the deed. I don’t think there was any conspiracy-just a scumbag deciding he was too chicken to put up with a trial and certain incarceration. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/97 "2019-08-15T13:45:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …So did they pay _all_ the guards, from the gate all the way up to his cell? Or just those two? And what about the contractors - janitorial staff, cafeteria, etc? [Epstein’s lawyers requested](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/attorney-general-barr-epstein-conspirators-rest-easy/story?id=64924045) that he be taken off suicide watch, so I guess they were in on it too. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/98 "2019-08-15T13:52:56Z")
Suicide. This is upsetting. We Dopers are smarted than the average bear. Why are a third of us entertaining conspiracy theories? This bodes ill for when the Russians start their already-planned preelection viral fake news. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/99 "2019-08-15T14:12:30Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Why? > > Prison guard isn’t a career many people aspire to; it’s a job people fall into because their other plans didn’t work out. Typical features include low pay, lousy working conditions, boredom, lots of paperwork, dealing with unpleasant people, and lack of accomplishment: at the end of the shift, you usually can’t say you made people’s lives better or achieved some goal, but merely got through to the end of another tedious shift. Those kinds of job features tend to drive away people who are or want to be enthusiastic or motivated about their work. Who’s left? My 25 year old son is a corrections officer in a large southern prison and he _loves_ his job. He has access to a gym, and is in the best shape he’s ever been in. During downtime he lifts, and he gets paid to work out with his colleagues; “wrestling” (fighting dirty), learning judo, etc. He has gotten pay increases with each new skill he learns; he is certified to do cell extractions, shoot a variety of weapons, etc. Sure, he deals with some of the scum of the earth, but he finds this hilarious. Some days he sits in a tower, working on his farmer tan, some days he works in the segregation unit, some days he transports dangerous guys. When we talk about his job it skeeves me the fuck out, but he is very happy. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572/100 "2019-08-15T14:22:30Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I’m sorry, but I simply don’t believe this can possibly be true. Do you have a cite for this? Which part of this do you want a cite for? Here’s [a cite for the federal staffing crisis](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/08/13/epstein-s-death-highlights-a-staffing-crisis-in-federal-prisons): the federal Bureau of Prisons has lost twelve percent of its workforce since January 2017, with teachers and chaplains being asked to substitute for guards who aren’t available. Elsewhere around the nation: Kansas: the state declared a [“staffing emergency”](https://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article226149675.html) at El Dorado Correctional Facility earlier this year: 25 percent of the uniformed positions were vacant and much of the staff was on mandatory 12-hour shifts. (El Dorado houses the state’s death row, the special management unit for persistent troublemakers, and a psychiatric unit, among others.) Arizona: a thirteen-year freeze on officer pay has led to [vacancy rates that can approach fifty percent](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2019/04/29/arizona-prison-guards-staffing-crisis-leads-dangerous-conditions/3143871002/) in some facilities. California: sweeping prison reform and downsizing at the state level [just pushed problems into county jails.](https://www.propublica.org/article/california-fresno-county-jail-deaths) Alabama: "Federal investigators who spent more than two years scrutinizing the prisons in a state that incarcerates more people per capita than almost any other found illegal drugs and weapons were rampant, cellblocks were overcrowded and dilapidated and the few poorly trained officers on duty appeared powerless to establish any semblance of control. "–[Violence, murder, rape in Alabama prisons unconstitutional, DOJ says](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/03/violence-murder-rape-alabama-prisons-unconstitutional-justice-department-investigation/3351480002/) In fact, it’s hard to find a state that has an efficient working correctional system; I certainly don’t know of any. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jeffrey-epstein-committed-suicide/838572.md?page=6)