# Do you think Jesus would like the way Christianity has gone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021 "2005-11-14T18:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/41 "2005-11-16T19:14:11Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And, Erek, your fantasies of a living Jesus in Rome are… amusing. I didn’t say he lives in Rome. I bet he has a satellite phone. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/42 "2005-11-16T19:23:02Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > I find (3) to be by far the most likely explanation. However the topic of this thread only makes sense in the context of (1), so for the rest of this post we’ll assume that (1) is true. I agree with you about number 3. > [@](#): > > What is Jesus’s message? First, love God. Second, be nice people. Be meek. Be pacifist. Love your neighbor, love your enemy, love everyone and everything (except fig trees). Do not judge others. Be charitable. Help the poor and the unfortunate. I disagree that this was his message. Jesus did not by any stretch advocate pacifism. I think the Jesus of the scriptures is a war God, and advocated doing what it takes to win. He said to love God, he said to be nice. He didn’t say to be a pacifist, he said he came to divide houses, brother against brother, that he didn’t come to bring peace but a sword. He said to love everyone, this does not equate with a lack of violence. The end-result is peace, not necessarily the means. He didn’t say not to judge others, he said “Judge not lest ye be judged.”, in otherwords if you are going to pass judgement be willing to take responsibility for your actions. He said to be charitable. > [@](#): > > In a situation like that, Jesus’s message makes good sense. You don’t want to be agressive or warlike or nasty when you’re surrounded by other factions that are bigger and tougher than you. Precisely. > [@](#): > > But those were the only circumstances that Jesus ever preached under. Would his message have stayed the same in other circumstances? Suppose Jesus was still around in 400 A.D., at a time when his followers held total control over much of Europe, Africa and the Middle East. In Europe, at least, a vast majority of the population was Christian, and the non-Christians were politically and militarily weak. In those circumstances, there would be no earthly reason for Jesus to continue extolling pacifism and meekness. Aggression and violence would be far more plausible. So would Jesus have changed his tone, or not? Maybe he’s waiting until he’s got control over the world in which case he’ll use the moden successor of the Roman Empire to crush any non-Christian states, starting with Babylon. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/43 "2005-11-16T20:00:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Maybe he’s waiting until he’s got control over the world in which case he’ll use the moden successor of the Roman Empire to crush any non-Christian states, starting with Babylon. > Erek All I can do is quote a silly movie: “Frank-en-fur-ter it’s all over. Your mission is a failure. Your Lifestyle’s too extreme. I’m your new commander. You now are my prisoner. I return to transelvania - prepare the transit beam.” ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/44 "2005-11-16T20:05:27Z")
Sorry about the silliness - I couldn;t help myself. However, I do have a serious question. > [@mswas](#): > > … advocated doing what it takes to win… > … he said he came to divide houses, brother against brother, that he didn’t come to bring peace but a sword… > Erek I am curious where these references are. I’ve got my Bible open and I’d like to see a couple. Thanks, -Citizen Bob ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/45 "2005-11-16T20:15:42Z")
> [@Citizen Bob](#): > > Sorry about the silliness - I couldn;t help myself. However, I do have a serious question. > > I am curious where these references are. I’ve got my Bible open and I’d like to see a couple. > > Thanks, > -Citizen Bob > **[Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 10 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010%3B&version=NIV)** > > Jesus Sends Out the Twelve - Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his... > [@Matthew 10:34](#): > > "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn > " ‘a man against his father, > a daughter against her mother, > a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw— > 36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[e] ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/46 "2005-11-16T20:31:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Jesus did not by any stretch advocate pacifism. I think the Jesus of the scriptures is a war God, and advocated doing what it takes to win. Please tell me you’re joking, otherwise, I, too, am demanding scripture references. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/47 "2005-11-16T20:36:23Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > Please tell me you’re joking, otherwise, I, too, am demanding scripture references. Matthew 10:34 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/48 "2005-11-16T20:40:41Z")
Ok… I again posted without checking previous posts. But it was the _last_ post of the thread. How could I have tought that someone would have already answered the _last_ post? ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/49 "2005-11-16T20:44:48Z")
Obviously I shouldn’t sit on posts…and I apologize for the hijack. He also says in Matthew Chapter 10:5-6 > [@](#): > > Jesus sent out these twelve 4 after instructing them thus, "Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Does that mean is message is for the “house of Isreal” alone? Further in Matthew 5:37-38 he says: > [@](#): > > You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. How is this consistent with one that wishes to bring war? That doesn’t sound very warlike to me… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/50 "2005-11-16T21:23:53Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > Does that mean is message is for the “house of Isreal” alone? Further in Matthew 5:37-38 he says: Yes > [@](#): > > How is this consistent with one that wishes to bring war? That doesn’t sound very warlike to me… I’ll leave you with this quote from Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’. > [@](#): > > 1. All warfare is based on deception. > > 2. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; > when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we > are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; > when far away, we must make him believe we are near. > > 3. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, > and crush him. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/51 "2005-11-16T21:30:46Z")
As he was speaking only to the house of Israel, all of his statements were culturally relevant within that context. So if he was fighting a war for the moral authority, then isn’t making your enemy look like a bigotted asshole, an effective tactic? If you give them no physical threat of violence, and they hit you anyway, and then you give them the opportunity to hit you again, then you have provoked them into overplaying their hand. I used that to get my Dad to stop hitting me. I told him he could hit me and I wouldn’t try to stop him. He punched me in the face, I didn’t move a muscle to stop him. My head snapped back, it snapped back forward, and I was giving him the same glare directly in his eyes that I was giving him before he hit me. After that he was always worried that I could take him in a fight, and he didn’t hit me anymore after that. I didn’t do that out of a sense of pacifism, I did it because I knew it would defeat an enemy I wasn’t sure I could take. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/52 "2005-11-16T21:49:44Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > As do I- remember that I do wrestle with the hope of Universal Salvation. > > I meant that we C’tians who believe that JC will kill a bunch of people at His Second Advent prefer those terms to “murder”. > > And I do not see Divine Judgement/Wrath and Mercy as excluding each other- the Deluge & Sodom are the main Biblical examples of the former, yet Christ descended to evangelize those killed in the Flood (I Peter 3) and Ezekiel (Ch 16) told Judah that as her sins made Samaria & Sodom look good, that God would in His mercy restore Sodom and Samaria both rather than irrevocably destroy Judah. I do know what you meant; I was playing off your remark to make the obvious point (which escapes a lot of people who reject Christianity based on the fire-and-brimstone-preacher stereotype they see). It would be a significant hijack of a good thread to get into this discussion, but let me offer for your meditation: Jesus did **not** say, “No one comes to the Father except by being a Christian,” but rather “…except by Me” – and He is the Second Person of an eternal and all-loving God, not merely a Palestinian rabbi whose life and atoning death we commemorate. C.S. Lewis (“The Horse and His Boy”) was able to convey the idea that Jesus != Christianity pretty clearly in a children’s book; it’s a pity that more people don’t pick up on the idea. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/53 "2005-11-16T22:08:41Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I do know what you meant; I was playing off your remark to make the obvious point (which escapes a lot of people who reject Christianity based on the fire-and-brimstone-preacher stereotype they see). > > It would be a significant hijack of a good thread to get into this discussion, but let me offer for your meditation: Jesus did **not** say, “No one comes to the Father except by being a Christian,” but rather “…except by Me” – and He is the Second Person of an eternal and all-loving God, not merely a Palestinian rabbi whose life and atoning death we commemorate. C.S. Lewis (“The Horse and His Boy”) was able to convey the idea that Jesus != Christianity pretty clearly in a children’s book; it’s a pity that more people don’t pick up on the idea. I don’t dismiss Christianity based upon the Fire and Brimstone in the same way that I would not dismiss Krishna even though he is part and parcel with Shiva the Destroyer. I was raised Christian nominally. I like to show alternate sides to the radical peacenik hippy interpretation. If I were to claim any anthropomorphic deity that I worship, it would probably be Shiva however, as Destruction is a necessary part of Creation, so I see Destruction as the intitiation of the creative process. I’ll even share a more radical aspect of my belief in that I do actually believe that George W Bush is working with Christ(Shiva) and his job is to destroy the American empire. (In as much as I actually believe anything) I see Gods as memes with their own consciousness, being and agenda. Jesus is an active participant in the way the world is unfolding. So to ask whether or not Jesus would approve or not is silly. Jesus has been actively shaping the world around us for 2005 years. So Jesus is behind the current American regime in the same way that Mohammed is behind Osama bin Laden. Except that I would say they are in cahoots working to bring down the Western Empire that Alexander started, Julius Caesar secured and Jesus has been ruling for a couple thousand years. A reminder of our rule by the three greatest Roman rulers is that the calendar starts when Jesus is born, and Julius and Octavian have months that seperate the 6th month of June from the 7th month of **SEPT** ember. Of course I do not believe in a stable sense of reailty. Subjective reality is individual and Objective reality is consensus. Erek ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/54 "2005-11-17T02:26:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I like to show alternate sides to the radical peacenik hippy interpretation. > > If I were to claim any anthropomorphic deity that I worship, it would probably be Shiva however, as Destruction is a necessary part of Creation, so I see Destruction as the intitiation of the creative process. Interesting, at least I can understand why you might believe Jesus would be happy with current events. Personally, I find it hard to believe that Jesus would hide his true intentions within 3 verses (found only in Matthew and Luke) while the rest of his ministry implies something different. Particularly when a portion of the verse is found in the Old Testament, Micah 7:6. Further, there is no historical evidence that his mission was as you claim, mainly, he gathered no army (as many of those that claimed to be the Messiah did, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants) ). Additionally, if his ministry truly meant what you imply, there would have been no purpose of the [Just War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war). Of course, that’s why I believe Jesus would be horribly disappointed with the direction that his ministries took - that people focus more on the little details than trying to be better people and trying to make the world a better place. But then again, I subscribe to the “radical peacenik hippy interpretation.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/55 "2005-11-17T09:50:19Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It would be a significant hijack of a good thread to get into this discussion, but let me offer for your meditation: Jesus did **not** say, “No one comes to the Father except by being a Christian,” but rather “…except by Me” – and He is the Second Person of an eternal and all-loving God, not merely a Palestinian rabbi whose life and atoning death we commemorate. C.S. Lewis (“The Horse and His Boy”) was able to convey the idea that Jesus != Christianity pretty clearly in a children’s book; it’s a pity that more people don’t pick up on the idea. Now we’re close to the same page- my pastor expressed shock in a sermon that a recent poll showed 60+% of self-identified Evangelical Christians agreed that non-C’tians could enter Heaven, because of course “if we could get to Heaven just by being nice & believing anything there would be no need for Christ to die for us”. Whether I kept my mouth shut out of discretion or cowardice, I really wanted to point out that 1) if I really strongly questioned him, I probably could get him to agree that God’s Grace in Christ would avail to save some non-C’tians, 2) a poll of those in our pews would probably yield similar results, and 3) we Evangelicals who did believe this do not believe they get in Heaven by being good but that by the conduct of their lives, they showed themselves touched by God’s Grace through Jesus whether or not they know JC by Name. That said- I also want to avoid the other extreme- that Christian faith is irrelevant to salvation. I do firmly believe- -Those who could be real C’tians yet choose not to be will be judged for their rejection of Jesus (just as professing C’tians who deliberately live hypocritically will be judged, probably more harshly than any decent non-Ctians). -Devout caring C’tians will have a privileged place in the Afterlife/Resurrection, perhaps comparable to what the JW’s believe about the 144000 or the LDS about the deified humans in the Celestial Kingdom. Mediocre C’tians & decent non-C’tians will be on a similar level, with perhaps the latter outdoing the former. -In the Blessed Realm, btw, there will be no non-Ctians as everyone who dies not trusting Christ will trust Him by the time they get to Heaven. -There is no real division between the Eternal Divine Son and the human Jewish son of Mary. Jesus and Christ cannot be properly distinquished from each other (Two natures- One person). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/56 "2005-11-17T18:05:01Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > Interesting, at least I can understand why you might believe Jesus would be happy with current events. > > Personally, I find it hard to believe that Jesus would hide his true intentions within 3 verses (found only in Matthew and Luke) while the rest of his ministry implies something different. Particularly when a portion of the verse is found in the Old Testament, Micah 7:6. Further, there is no historical evidence that his mission was as you claim, mainly, he gathered no army (as many of those that claimed to be the Messiah did, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants) ). > > Additionally, if his ministry truly meant what you imply, there would have been no purpose of the [Just War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war). > > Of course, that’s why I believe Jesus would be horribly disappointed with the direction that his ministries took - that people focus more on the little details than trying to be better people and trying to make the world a better place. But then again, I subscribe to the “radical peacenik hippy interpretation.” 😉 As I said before, God’s are memes. I disagree that Jesus didn’t form an army. He did form an army, he just didn’t use them violently. Didn’t he have like 5000-10000 devout followers at one point? Would they not have fought had he instructed them to? So as a meme the memes struggle with other memes, and in the end we as humans are the arbiters of which meme wins out. So the Peacenik Hippy archetype will win if it is the will of the people. However, the state of the world seems to point out that this interpretation is preached more than it is willed. It is most painfully obvious to me that our meddling in the middle-east caused us to be attacked, but people treat it as though we are on some righteous crusade against a muslim hoard that wants nothing more than our complete destruction. Something, I think is patently false. If the people who claim to be christians subscribed to the radical peacenik hippy interpretation, then we’d probably be living in a utopia about now, but as we are not, I think the evidence to the contrary is fairly prevalent. We are choosing the right to drive Hummer H2s over the right to live peaceably with our neighbors on this planet. I like to bring up the radical war god interpretation, because there is scriptural evidence for it, and because I’ve heard it quoted by more than once crusading evangelical type. I’ve seen the fantasy of fighting for a righteous army of God espoused by more than one young romantic. For this belief to be held so widely, there obviously has to be some undercurrent of violence held within the scriptures. At the moment I think wide-spread destruction is needed as we live in a country that has a perpetually lying government that is difficult to understand and lacks any sense of true justice. Whether this means that the American government needs to be brought down, or simply drastically overhauled I cannot say, but regardless I believe the system we have MUST be destroyed, and replaced with a more honest/just system. I believe that Jesus would want peace, justice and harmony eventually, but I am unable to really know what he may or may not have known about the narrative in the interim. It might very well be going according to plan for all I know. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/57 "2005-11-17T19:47:11Z")
> [@Art of War](#): > > III. ATTACK BY STRATAGEM > > 1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best > thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact; > to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is > better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, > to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire > than to destroy them. > > 2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles > is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists > in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting. Would you say that Sun Tzu was a pacifist even though he claimed many of the virtues that Jesus espoused, only in a different context? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/58 "2005-11-17T19:54:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As I said before, God’s are memes. Just a quick, almost-hijack comment to avoid a wave of argument on what was otherwise a thought-provoking post. God and/or gods may or may not exist, that question having been dealt with in numerous other threads and not germane here. But I read the quoted phrase as saying **"People’s ideas of God or gods** are memes." And with that I’d agree. (I just got through with an exchange of posts with our dear departed H4E on another board; **her concept** of God and mine are quite different, even though we both think we’re talking about the same existent entity. 'Nuff said? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/59 "2005-11-17T20:40:48Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Just a quick, almost-hijack comment to avoid a wave of argument on what was otherwise a thought-provoking post. > > God and/or gods may or may not exist, that question having been dealt with in numerous other threads and not germane here. But I read the quoted phrase as saying **"People’s ideas of God or gods** are memes." And with that I’d agree. (I just got through with an exchange of posts with our dear departed H4E on another board; **her concept** of God and mine are quite different, even though we both think we’re talking about the same existent entity. 'Nuff said? Sure, you might be talking about the same existent entity, when you might disagree about the properties of said entity. Now what I am arguing is not so much that one of you is right the other is wrong, that both of you are wrong, or both of you are right, but that the disagreement is a power-struggle, the resolution being the decision as to what the actual properties of said meme truly are. In otherwords, as Jesus has made the transition from person to Meme, his followers have become his will, and are acting out his internal struggle, externally ultimately deciding on what that will, inevitably will be. It is rather irrelevant whether or not he was a pacifist or a warrior, because peace will come when all sides agree that they have “won”, and come to a resolution that everyone is satisfied with, and that at this point is when peace on Earth will reign. In the end the ideology used to come to the resolution is completely irrelevant, as what brings about peace is the harmony of total accord, or a redefining of the word, ‘conflict’ so that certain types of conflict like stabbing someone to death, are considered ‘war’ and philisophical argument is considered ‘peace’. So if Jesus is truly a God, which to me would be a sentient Meme, then he has taken an active role for the past two millenia, and the state of his followers is his doing. To imply that there is an ideal is to say that one day it will be “finished” and then we close the book and it’s over. Total satisfaction in this case would be the end of the world. (Taking the idea that Jesus is the supreme deity) Erek ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021/60 "2005-11-17T21:43:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As I said before, God’s are memes. I disagree that Jesus didn’t form an army. He did form an army, he just didn’t use them violently. Didn’t he have like 5000-10000 devout followers at one point? Would they not have fought had he instructed them to? An army and what his followers were are two very different things. I would not say that a peaceful protest that has thousands of attendees is an army. Perhaps the more significant observation is not that he had a large following but that he never once chose to use them violently. He had the ability and still chose not to. > [@](#): > > If the people who claim to be christians subscribed to the radical peacenik hippy interpretation, then we’d probably be living in a utopia about now, but as we are not, I think the evidence to the contrary is fairly prevalent. We are choosing the right to drive Hummer H2s over the right to live peaceably with our neighbors on this planet. > > I like to bring up the radical war god interpretation, because there is scriptural evidence for it, and because I’ve heard it quoted by more than once crusading evangelical type. I’ve seen the fantasy of fighting for a righteous army of God espoused by more than one young romantic. For this belief to be held so widely, there obviously has to be some undercurrent of violence held within the scriptures. I disagree. As I understand your argument, you’re claiming that because Christianity appears to not be peaceful that that is the way it was intended. I think you’re confusing scripture with St. Augustine’s Just War. Jesus spoke very little of war and violence and much more frequently on love, compassion, etc. It was St. Augustine, who upon seeing Rome fall and took what critics of Christianity claimed was its downfall (pacifism) and spun it into a light that would justify a non-pacifist Christianity. And while both you and I can read the Bible and come away with two different meanings, it is equally plausible that religious leaders have place their own bias witin the scripture. To state that another way - is it possible that not only the “meme” of Jesus influences Christianity, but also the “memes” of others that would rather take Christianity down a seperate path? And, would it be fair to claim that there is only a single “meme” at work among Christianity? That perhaps Jesus truly was a pacifist and his “meme” continues on the message of love and compassion while a conflicting “meme” distorts Jesus’s message so that it carries a separte, yet distinct message? Side question: Is your theory of “memes” similar to the movie [Fallen](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0119099/)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-jesus-would-like-the-way-christianity-has-gone/331021.md?page=4)