# Do you think linking UFOs with the paranormal is healthy for either discussion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976 "2013-06-14T08:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/201 "2013-06-14T20:48:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Put it this way…ask a Christian or a Muslim which one is right and which one is woo and you will get a different answer depending on which you ask. Correct? Well, to an agnostic it’s a moot point, since both are equally woo based. > > This is the same thing. Ask a UFO person and a person who believes in ghosts if THEIR belief is more facts based and you are going to get a different answer. While to a skeptic or someone with a scientific bent it’s really all the same. > > Yeah, they are both opinions, but one is actually based on a rational view and an unbiased review of the evidence (or lack their of) and the other is more a belief, since the reality is there ISN’T any evidence that either ghosts OR UFOs of extra-terrestrial origin are anything more. See? The problem isn’t that you don’t believe or that you believe you are right. It’s that you believe those who believe differently than you do are wrong. As I’ve said I won’t get into religion with you, but I will say that for me faith is neither anecdotal nor without evidence. Since you don’t know me and don’t know of the experiences from which I draw my faith, it’s impolite for you to insinuate that I am “wrong” in my belief simply because you don’t believe the same things. And to put it in a category of things you also find unbelievable is also wrong. I am a Christian, but I would never call a Muslim, Agnostic, or Jewish person “wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/202 "2013-06-14T20:51:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It appears that you and **Czarcasm** mean very different things by “UFOlogist”, which is why he asked you what the term meant to you. He’s speaking of a broader group than you are. He is speaking of UFO Enthusiasts. All the same the statement is incorrect. Here is the list of EVERY North American UFOlogist recognized by the organizations that make up the UFO community; (Some are living and some are not, but this is as complete a list as you’ll find). Also, some of these people are broadcasters and some are writers (not in the scholarly sense) and they do in fact write on other subjects, but even they do not consider the subjects one in the same. Alfred Webre Allen H. Greenfield Art Bell Bob Lazar Bruce Maccabee Budd Hopkins Charles I. Halt Curtis Peebles Daniel Fry Danielle Egnew Donald Howard Menzel Donald Keyhoe Edward J. Ruppelt George Adamski George Knapp George Noory Glenn Dennis Greg Bishop Harley Rutledge J. Allen Hynek J. Randall Murphy Jacques Fabrice Vallée Jaime Maussan James W. Moseley Jason Murphy Jerome Clark Jim Marrs John Edward Mack John Keel Leonard H. Stringfield Linda Moulton Howe Michael D. Swords Morris K. Jessup Nick Redfern Orfeo Angelucci Paul Hellyer Philip J. Corso Philip J. Klass Raymond E. Fowler Richard H. Hall Richard M. Dolan Riley Martin Rob Simone Robert Dean Robert Sheaffer Stanton Friedman Steve Hopkins Steven M. Greer Whitley Strieber Wilbert Brockhouse Smith William J. Birnes ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/203 "2013-06-14T20:51:31Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > It’s that you believe those who believe differently than you do are wrong. That’s hardly unusual. > [@](#): > > As I’ve said I won’t get into religion with you, but I will say that for me faith is neither anecdotal nor without evidence. That’s what you’re saying about UFOs, but the evidence you’ve shared is hardly convincing. > [@](#): > > Since you don’t know me and don’t know of the experiences from which I draw my faith, it’s impolite for you to insinuate that I am “wrong” in my belief simply because you don’t believe the same things. That’s not really true. If you believe in a global flood, for example - and I’m not suggesting you believe that, I’m just using it as for instance - you are simply wrong. It doesn’t matter where your belief comes from. What matters is that the facts show it is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/204 "2013-06-14T20:54:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It appears that you and **Czarcasm** mean very different things by “UFOlogist”, which is why he asked you what the term meant to you. He’s speaking of a broader group than you are. That’s right-unless and until someone shows me that there is some kind of official training and accreditation going on, a “UFOlogist” is anyone that calls him/herself a “UFOlogist”-and they are all equally valid in my eyes for just that reason. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/205 "2013-06-14T20:57:01Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You can substitute \*ghost \*for _UFO_ in the quote above and you’ll find dozens of stories that read exactly the same. That’s why their lumped together. > > And they and you are suffering from the same flaw - your bar for credible puts way too much emphasis on eye witnesses and human memory. It’s has been shown time and time again that both are easily manipulated (consciously and unconsciously) in regular and predictable patterns. > > In short, well meaning and intelligent people are fooled by their own senses and memories all the time. Without physical evidence, it’s not much more than a ghost story. Almost every situation that calls for witness testimony does so either because physical evidence is lacking or because it is not strong enough on its own. In a great many instances eye witness testimony outweighs physical evidence. Assuming that eyewitnesses have no value in no way increases your standard for credibility. These people report what they saw. The inferences that others make with that information in no way discredits their original account. And in any court in this country you need proof to discount eyewitness testimony, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/206 "2013-06-14T20:58:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s right-unless and until someone shows me that there is some kind of official training and accreditation going on, a “UFOlogist” is anyone that calls him/herself a “UFOlogist”-and they are all equally valid in my eyes for just that reason. So, then once again - who are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/207 "2013-06-14T20:59:37Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > He is speaking of UFO Enthusiasts. All the same the statement is incorrect. > > Here is the list of EVERY North American UFOlogist recognized by the organizations that make up the UFO community; (Some are living and some are not, but this is as complete a list as you’ll find). Also, some of these people are broadcasters and some are writers (not in the scholarly sense) and they do in fact write on other subjects, but even they do not consider the subjects one in the same.(list snipped) 1. Where did this list come from? 2. What organizations are you referring to? 3. What are the qualifications for being an authentic “UFOlogist”? Bonus Questions: 1. What peer-reviewed journals did they publish in? 2. Where does one get an accredited degree in this subject? Cites would be nice, btw. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/208 "2013-06-14T21:03:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Where did this list come from? > 2. What organizations are you referring to? > 3. What are the qualifications for being an authentic “UFOlogist”? > > Bonus Questions: > > 1. What peer-reviewed journals did they publish in? > 2. Where does one get an accredited degree in this subject? > Cites would be nice, btw. Answer the question. We’ve established that my list isn’t all inclusive and that you’re drawing from a much larger pool. So, YOU made the statement and I’m asking you to prove what YOU said. My list is now irrelevant. Who were YOU talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/209 "2013-06-14T21:07:15Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > So, then once again - who are you talking about? People that call into late night radio shows, people that write for the UFO magazine I linked to, the people that write to the people that write for the UFO magazine I linked to, the same two groups that write for and to _other_ UFO magazines, people that have blogs and fullblown websites that link the two(agains, see links provided) etc. ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/210 "2013-06-14T21:08:17Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > Answer the question. We’ve established that my list isn’t all inclusive and that you’re drawing from a much larger pool. So, YOU made the statement and I’m asking you to prove what YOU said. My list is now irrelevant. Who were YOU talking about? Link to where you got your list, please. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/211 "2013-06-14T21:13:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > People that call into late night radio shows, people that write for the UFO magazine I linked to, the people that write to the people that write for the UFO magazine I linked to, the same two groups that write for and to _other_ UFO magazines, people that have blogs and fullblown websites that link the two(agains, see links provided) etc. ad nauseum. _Sightings_ probably pushed that theory, since my dad used to watch that show and talk about that theory. [Believers sometimes cite this passage in Ezekiel as evidence of a link between religion or God and aliens.](http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/212 "2013-06-14T21:13:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > People that call into late night radio shows, people that write for the UFO magazine I linked to, the people that write to the people that write for the UFO magazine I linked to, the same two groups that write for and to _other_ UFO magazines, people that have blogs and fullblown websites that link the two(agains, see links provided) etc. ad nauseum. I write for a UFO magazine. I am no UFOlogist. I’ve read on the subject for a total of three weeks. Callers to a radio show is your qualification but I need an accreditation to add someone to my list? I am a political blogger. Does that make me an expert on politics? The people on my list have testified AS EXPERTS before Congress. The people on my list speak at UFO Conventions and are WIDELY accepted as preeminent in their field. The people on my list are authors (of books not blogs), broadcasters (for decades), and would stand up as an expert in any court in the country. The majority of people recognized as UFOlogists by people who know a lot more on the subject than you and I do DO NOT consider paranormal and UFOlogy the same topic. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/213 "2013-06-14T21:13:36Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > Assuming that eyewitnesses have no value in no way increases your standard for credibility. These people report what they saw. The inferences that others make with that information in no way discredits their original account. No one is arguing that all of these folks are frauds (although some clearly are). They may really believe what they are reporting, and the closer you record their observations to the point of the incident they are generally more accurate. But time has a regular and predictable way of changing the story. This isn’t really in doubt; there are plenty of studies that show how bad human memory is at keeping facts straight and not conflating reality and fantasy. But their original observations, even taken right after the incident are often wrong in similar predictable manners. People in general have very poor observational skills. There are countless studies and real world examples of this phenomenon. Are you arguing that we should take people’s stories about incidents that are out of their normal range of experiences at face value when we have logical and supported alternative explanations that are supported by physical evidence? ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/214 "2013-06-14T21:14:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _Sightings_ probably pushed that theory, since my dad used to watch that show and talk about that theory. [Believers sometimes cite this passage in Ezekiel as evidence of a link between religion or God and aliens.](http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/1.htm) Once again, I’m the person who mentioned that the “discussion” has been linked. The argument we’re having now is whether UFO experts consider them linked. They don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/215 "2013-06-14T21:14:44Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > I write for a UFO magazine. I really mean no offense, but the fact that you’ve been reading up on this subject for only three weeks and are already being published in a UFO magazine speaks very poorly for the credibility of UFO publications. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/216 "2013-06-14T21:18:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No one is arguing that all of these folks are frauds (although some clearly are). They may really believe what they are reporting, and the closer you record their observations to the point of the incident they are generally more accurate. But time has a regular and predictable way of changing the story. This isn’t really in doubt; there are plenty of studies that show how bad human memory is at keeping facts straight and not conflating reality and fantasy. > > But their original observations, even taken right after the incident are often wrong in similar predictable manners. People in general have very poor observational skills. There are countless studies and real world examples of this phenomenon. > > Are you arguing that we should take people’s stories about incidents that are out of their normal range of experiences at face value when we have logical and supported alternative explanations that are supported by physical evidence? Okay, but if you take thirty statements from thirty witnesses and they all say the guy was driving a car and ran over the kid. Every one of them picks the person out of a lineup without question. Every one of them swears under oath that the person who did this is the same person. It doesn’t really matter than not every person remembers the make or model of the car. It doesn’t really matter because the pertinent piece of evidence has been established. And even if ten of them got the wrong guy - 20 people said the same thing! You don’t have contradicting witnesses. You have witnesses who you choose to disbelieve. That’s to be expected when they’re telling an INCREDIBLE story, but when 20 trained observers say the same thing - it counts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/217 "2013-06-14T21:20:16Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > I write for a UFO magazine. I am no UFOlogist. I’ve read on the subject for a total of three weeks. Callers to a radio show is your qualification but I need an accreditation to add someone to my list? I am a political blogger. Does that make me an expert on politics? The people on my list have testified AS EXPERTS before Congress. The people on my list speak at UFO Conventions and are WIDELY accepted as preeminent in their field. The people on my list are authors (of books not blogs), broadcasters (for decades), and would stand up as an expert in any court in the country. The majority of people recognized as UFOlogists by people who know a lot more on the subject than you and I do DO NOT consider paranormal and UFOlogy the same topic. Their “field” consists of speculation without any solid evidence, and they are looked upon as “experts” because they put themselves forth as “experts” and those that believe as they do support their claim. Whether they know more about UFOs than I do is certainly up for debate because I know what I know and you don’t, and none from either my list or yours has any more hard evidence than I already do. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/218 "2013-06-14T21:20:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I really mean no offense, but the fact that you’ve been reading up on this subject for only three weeks and are already being published in a UFO magazine speaks very poorly for the credibility of UFO publications. I’ve written stories on sports and sewing too. Can’t run very fast and don’t sew. It’s about the research and the writing. What do you think writers do? They’re not usually experts in the field they write on. We write about experts. Our job isn’t to be the story, it’s to tell THEIR story. Pick a subject and I’ll give you an example. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/219 "2013-06-14T21:21:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Their “field” consists of speculation without any solid evidence, and they are looked upon as “experts” because they put themselves forth as “experts” and those that believe as they do support their claim. Whether they know more about UFOs than I do is certainly up for debate because I know what I know and you don’t, and none from either my list or yours has any more hard evidence than I already do. If an entire community accepts them, pays to hear them lecture, buys their books, and the United States Congress accepts their testimony, I’d say that’s a better qualification that calling in to a radio show and having a blog. Said another way - You don’t have a list. You have a generalization that is a false one. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/220 "2013-06-14T21:22:44Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > What do you think writers do? I know very well what writers do, thanks very much. I thought you were attempting to demonstrate your own knowledge of the field, not your ability to write about what other people say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976.md?page=12)