# Do you think linking UFOs with the paranormal is healthy for either discussion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976 "2013-06-14T08:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/101 "2013-06-14T17:54:58Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > There were three guards at the craft itself. Yes others kept their distance. And you are correct the guard that touched it was the one who took notes and drew pictures. Also, there were radar reports of the object (actually two objects) at the time of the sighting.. Penniston is the one who now claims to have touched it; he obviously did not, since his statement says he never came closer than 160 feet. Burrough’s statement corroborates this. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/102 "2013-06-14T17:56:16Z")
And there were no radar reports at the time of the second sighting, and probably none at the first. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/103 "2013-06-14T17:58:51Z")
Radar- the supposed confirmation does not exist. > [@](#): > > “We scrutinized the radar time and time again completely, and kept a watch on it through the whole period when these phone calls were going on and nothing was seen. Nothing at all,” Coumbe told the BBC. (Thanks to Dave Clarke for the transcript. See also under the heading “Radar and Radiation” on this page from Clarke’s website.) > > Undoubtedly, it is the lack of any radar contact that led the MoD to dismiss the case as of no defence significance back in 1981. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/104 "2013-06-14T18:02:57Z")
With respect to the Phoenix Lights, Mitch Stanley, a young amateur astronomer, saw the jets responsible through his telescope, flying in formation. > [@](#): > > ``` > That night Mitch and his mother, Linda, were in the backyard and noticed the lights coming from the north. Since the lights seemed to be moving so slowly, Mitch attempted to capture them in the scope. He succeeded, and the leading three lights fit in his field of vision. Linda asked what they were. "Planes," Mitch said. > > It was plain to see, he says. What looked like individual lights to the naked eye actually split into two under the resolving power of the telescope. The lights were located on the undersides of squarish wings, Mitch says. And the planes themselves seemed small, like light private planes. > > Stanley watched them for about a minute, and then turned away. It was the last thing the amateur astronomer wanted to look at. "They were just planes, I didn't want to look at them," Stanley says when he's asked why he didn't stare at them longer. He is certain about what he saw: "They were planes. There's no way I could have mistaken that." > > ``` [https://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/azconc.htm](https://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/azconc.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/105 "2013-06-14T18:04:28Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > How could you? You never looked. I’m asking you to explain and all I’m hearing is generalities about military people and security clearances. Doctors are wrong about medical things all the time if they’re speaking outside their area of expertise. Why can’t that happen to people in the military? > [@](#): > > No I didn’t know that, but if they’re being murdered for any reason they deserve an investigation. Well shouldn’t we first investigate if they’re really witches? I’d hate to come off as closed-minded or anything. > [@](#): > > Investigations shouldn’t begin with a claim as to what the investigation will conclude. Of course that is exactly how experiments begin. But I didn’t ask you for the conclusion of an investigation. I said if you’re making a claim, the burden of proof is on you. And you’re struggling to tell us what you even think should be investigated or why it should be investigated, but you’re demanding we prove you’re wrong that there must be something to these sitings. We don’t have to prove you wrong. You have to demonstrate that there’s something remarkable going on, and the facts say there isn’t. > [@](#): > > And most of these sightings (the ones I listed) these people didn’t offer conclusions except to say that they believed there was a security issue along with details of their encounters. Why is there an issue, and what is the issue? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/106 "2013-06-14T18:06:42Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > Take the Phoenix lights incident from our earlier conversation. People claimed later that it was light aircraft and flares. Which of those can be seen from Nevada? None. This only proves that theory to be invalid, but so ask another question or continue to investigate. Stopping at one answer that is easily proven to be wrong is just dumb. Literally hundreds to thousands of people reported that sighting. Nobody got famous from it and nobody made any money (among the reporters). So, unless the Governor of Arizona and a boat load of other people were lying or mistaken I’d say they saw an object that was both flying and unidentified. I am not familiar with the incident in question but Nevada and Arizona **share a border** so you can certainly see things in both at the same time. Reading the Wikipedia article there were reports of lights from Henderson NV (right by the AZ border), Prescott AZ and Phoenix AZ and probably some other places. To be clear, these are people who saw lights in the night sky, not people looking at something in broad daylight. Sure there’s somebody who said there was a mile-wide spacecraft hovering directly over Phoenix for a while, but there’s also an amateur astronomer who was looking through his telescope and says it was definitely plain old airplanes. So basically there are photos of lights in the night sky. That appears to be the sum total evidence. Could it have been something really odd? Sure. Does it seem likely? Not to me, no. We know that people are lousy at drawing accurate information from seeing lights in the dark at a distance (altitude, heading, speed, motion, etc) so I’m going with the Governor and lots of other people being plain old mistaken about exactly what they saw. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/107 "2013-06-14T18:09:31Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Penniston is the one who now claims to have touched it; he obviously did not, since his statement says he never came closer than 160 feet. Burrough’s statement corroborates this. So your claim is that his notes and drawings are fake? If so, noted. So that’s evening one. On evening two Colonel Charles Halt took a squad out to investigate the second sighting. All of the men following the object into the forest and after relatively close contact they chased it until it separated and then fled. Obviously not a lighthouse. From night one photos of the ground and geiger readings of the were taken. The radiation levels were recorded at “significantly above normal”. From nights one and two radar operators reported contact which they taped. They said the tapes were taken after the night two sighting. When investigators questioned the military about the missing tapes they didn’t say there weren’t missing tapes, they said “That’s classified”. So, you have the three man guard unit from night one. And a Colonel and squad of men from night two. You have the original guard patrol who dispatched the three man unit on night one and two radar operators. Every one of them still testifies today to seeing whatever you want to call it. All of the original three and the squad from the second night state today that it was a “structured craft”. There was also a sighting of the “craft” at a second base on the first night. So that’s more that a dozen people total. Did ALL of these people mistake a lighthouse for a UFO? And you don’t think there’s a security problem? They’re either telling the truth or hallucinating big time. Again, nobody was taken off post and no leaves were ever requested. I find that pretty strange. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/108 "2013-06-14T18:12:11Z")
As I said earlier, am I supposed to care if these are experimental aircraft? I don’t expect the Air Force and Grumman and Lockheed to email all their prototype designs to me so I can get a look at them. It makes no difference to me. If these aren’t aliens, who cares? ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/109 "2013-06-14T18:13:07Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > I am not familiar with the incident in question but Nevada and Arizona **share a border** so you can certainly see things in both at the same time. Reading the Wikipedia article there were reports of lights from Henderson NV (right by the AZ border), Prescott AZ and Phoenix AZ and probably some other places. > > To be clear, these are people who saw lights in the night sky, not people looking at something in broad daylight. Sure there’s somebody who said there was a mile-wide spacecraft hovering directly over Phoenix for a while, but there’s also an amateur astronomer who was looking through his telescope and says it was definitely plain old airplanes. > > So basically there are photos of lights in the night sky. That appears to be the sum total evidence. Could it have been something really odd? Sure. Does it seem likely? Not to me, no. We know that people are lousy at drawing accurate information from seeing lights in the dark at a distance (altitude, heading, speed, motion, etc) so I’m going with the Governor and lots of other people being plain old mistaken about exactly what they saw. There is no light plane or flare big enough to be seen from Phoenix to Nevada that would draw attention like that. That’s over 200 miles away and most people have seen planes before. Keep in mind we have (in Nevada) an Air Force base and Area51 - suffice it to say we see alot of strange crap flying around and most people are used to it. And there was more than one person who said they saw structure beyond the lights. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/110 "2013-06-14T18:14:07Z")
Things that happen on a military base are classified? I’m shocked! ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/111 "2013-06-14T18:16:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As I said earlier, am I supposed to care if these are experimental aircraft? I don’t expect the Air Force and Grumman and Lockheed to email all their prototype designs to me so I can get a look at them. It makes no difference to me. If these aren’t aliens, who cares? Which case are you talking about? The one where two nuclear missile bases were compromised or the one where over 1500 rounds of anti aircraft ammunition were fired over Los Angeles? Or the one that caused jets to be scrambled twice in a week’s time over D.C? These seem pretty serious to me, whatever the actual cause. Again I never said the word alien. I just think if we’re going to be shooting at, chasing, and afraid of these sightings maybe a more scientific response is in order. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/112 "2013-06-14T18:18:09Z")
The Malmstrom AFB sighting; this article is very interesting concerning that non-event; > **[Americans, Credulous by James Carlson | PDF | Unidentified Flying Object](https://www.scribd.com/doc/26641522/Americans-Credulous-by-James-Carlson)** > > James Carlson's book length manuscript, entitled "Americans, Credulous - or - The Arrogance of Congenital Liars & Other Character Defects - Establishing the Truth Behind the Echo Flight UFO Incident of March 16, 1967" debunks completely the Echo... > [@](#): > > We’re fortunate, however, that when it comes to anassessment of the Echo Flight Incident, > the historical record and the numerous statements of witnesses contain all that is necessary to completely refute every association of this event withactual interference by UFOs. A similar event has occured recently, in 2010; once again it can be explained by bored security guards misinterpreting what they have seen, on the ground and in the sky. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/113 "2013-06-14T18:18:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Things that happen on a military base are classified? > > I’m shocked! Why would a lighthouse be classified? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/114 "2013-06-14T18:19:22Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > These seem pretty serious to me, whatever the actual cause. Again I never said the word alien. I just think if we’re going to be shooting at, chasing, and afraid of these sightings maybe a more scientific response is in order. What kind of scientific response? An investigation into why people see stuff and think it’s other stuff? ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/115 "2013-06-14T18:22:40Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > The Malmstrom AFB sighting; > this article is very interesting concerning that non-event; > [Americans, Credulous by James Carlson | PDF | Unidentified Flying Object](http://www.scribd.com/doc/26641522/Americans-Credulous-by-James-Carlson) > > A similar event has occured recently, in 2010; once again it can be explained by bored security guards misinterpreting what they have seen, on the ground and in the sky. The testimony I am relying on here is of the base commander. He reported the same set of facts at the time as he reports now and produces a written record to prove it. So, the guy in charge of launching a half dozen sets of nuclear missiles is hallucinating, lying, or ill in some way and his duty assignment never changed and nobody ever refuted his testimony on the record. That’s not strange? Oh and keep in mind he had to be called out of the silo by the guards who initially reported what they saw, which they still say today too. These records are no longer classified. So, matching their original statements to today’s is pretty easy. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/116 "2013-06-14T18:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > the one where over 1500 rounds of anti aircraft ammunition were fired over Los Angeles? There is plenty of evidence that the rounds were fired; no evidence at all that they were fired at anything. The famous photo shows searchlights illuminating the smoke from the shells, which were timed to explode at a particular height. > [@](#): > > The acting commander of the anti-aircraft artillery brigade in the area testified that he had first been convinced that he had seen fifteen planes in the air, but had quickly decided that he was seeing smoke. Competent correspondents like Ernie Pyle and Bill Henry witnessed the shooting and wrote that they were never able to make out an airplane. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/117 "2013-06-14T18:23:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What kind of scientific response? An investigation into why people see stuff and think it’s other stuff? You get that these guys use live ammo right? So, if they’re panicked over something imaginary, it’s still a thing. You get that right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/118 "2013-06-14T18:24:07Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > Why would a lighthouse be classified? IT’s the freakin’ _military_-everything is classified. ---
**Author:** ![RadioActiveRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@RadioActiveRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioActiveRich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/119 "2013-06-14T18:25:06Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > There is plenty of evidence that the rounds were fired; no evidence at all that they were fired at anything. And that doesn’t scare the shit outta you? Seriously? LOL! And again nobody was fired, reassigned, or taken off active duty. 1500 rounds at nothing! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976/120 "2013-06-14T18:26:12Z")
> [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > You get that these guys use live ammo right? So, if they’re panicked over something imaginary, it’s still a thing. You get that right? Yes. And I assume that when the military screws up, they take steps to prevent that screwup from happening again but that they probably won’t tell us what they did because announcing their vulnerabilities is not what they do. Please explain what you want to do about this thing. > [@RadioActiveRich](#): > > And again nobody was fired, reassigned, or taken off active duty. 1500 rounds at nothing! At least they didn’t invade and occupy Arizona. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-linking-ufos-with-the-paranormal-is-healthy-for-either-discussion/660976.md?page=7)