# Do you think Steve Jobs was a "great man"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 13, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547 "2015-10-13T14:06:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/41 "2015-10-14T09:47:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Ghandi was something of an ass personally though. Good thing too. I’m deeply suspicious of great men who are also good men. Those are the ones which really have the potential to go completely psycho on the world. Hitler and Stalin were that kind of men. Churchill by comparison was only a great man, not particular good. Do you mean a pleasant and attractive personality rather than ‘good’? Because I’m struggling to imagine how either Hitler or Stalin could be described as good, though I do recall that Hitler was apparently an understanding and patient boss (well if you weren’t losing Stalingrad or something like that) as attested to by his secretaries and other close associates while Churchill was a bullying, loud-mouthed, ill-tempered prick. I assume thats what you mean? As for Steve Jobs, while I’m sure I’ve experienced his impact on the world at a remove I’ve quite happily never owned any Apple products (no particular reason, they’ve just never caught my attention) and though I was vaguely aware that he was the head of Apple that was about it. Just one persons opinion. Bill Gates would leap to my mind more quickly as a ‘Great Man’ both because of his impact on the world and his philanthropy. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/42 "2015-10-14T12:51:06Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > It does kinda bug me that everybody picks on Apple because they don’t build their products in the USA. Name me one major electronics company that does. Those Android phones and HDTVs and Windows laptops aren’t built in the US either. If they were, they’d be so expensive that people wouldn’t buy them. > > I’m not saying what Apple or the other companies are doing is right. But it’s not fair to pick on Apple for it and give everybody else a pass. I usually don’t, save when people as if Jobs was a great man. 🙂 I do think that Apple would be an ideal production to manufacture in the United States. People would still buy it, the product is a cool status symbol. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/43 "2015-10-14T13:52:08Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > How many docudrama movies are going to be made about him, anyway? They still need to make \*\* Steve Jobs: Vampire Hunter\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/44 "2015-10-14T14:07:00Z")
Also let’s face it the great/good tagline makes use of some broad senses of the word. More like brilliant vs. decent, as the script itself says. And as has been pointed out before, it’s GandHi, fer cryin’ out loud… H at the end not the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/45 "2015-10-14T15:00:32Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And as has been pointed out before, it’s GandHi, fer cryin’ out loud… H at the end not the beginning. Yeah, just remember it in alphabetical order. Or fitting for this thread: G(reat) AND HI ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/46 "2015-10-14T15:27:45Z")
By definition, anyone who reaches some point near the pinnacle of their industry or occupation designing and producing products or services that benefit society in general is a “great” man or woman. The problem with this question is differing opinions on the meaning of the term “great” in this context. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/47 "2015-10-14T15:30:17Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > The problem with this question is differing opinions on the meaning of the term “great” in this context. That’s the point of the question. It’s a feature, not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![Gothic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Gothic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gothic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/48 "2015-10-14T16:59:59Z")
Someone once said “Don’t try to be a great man. Just be a man, and let history make its own judgements.” I think history is being very generous to Steve Jobs, if he had more time, I like to think he would have improved as a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/49 "2015-10-14T17:05:21Z")
> [@Gothic](#): > > … if he had more time, I like to think he would have improved as a human being. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that would be the case. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/50 "2015-10-14T17:15:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That’s the point of the question. It’s a feature, not a bug. So, ultimately, you are holding discussion on the definition of “Great.” I am inclined to go with the definition used in the context I mention about, as an approach to studying History: does this individual “cast a long historical shadow” and seen as a pivotal actor in historical events? Looking for Great to mean something like “decent and honorable and acting on those principles to affect history” is a non-starter for Jobs, so why discuss. Great meaning “brilliant” - meh. Yes, you may argue with the relative importance of what he was brilliant at - e.g., marketing vs. creation of Consumer Tech - but he was clearly brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/51 "2015-10-15T02:13:23Z")
Henry Ford was a great man, but not necessarily a good one. Same goes for Steve Jobs. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/52 "2015-10-15T20:45:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Have they really though? What did he invent rather than adapt that changed the entire culture? The iPod itself was life altering to me. I’m a music lover. I can’t tell you how much of my income has been devoted to buying music in its various formats including digital. I can’t tell you how much space I devoted in my home to storing my personal music collection. How I bought, and listened to music, completely changed after I bought my first iPod. Digital music wasn’t Jobs’ invention, you’ll argue. Perhaps not. But the iTunes library WAS. Jobs PERSONALLY met with music executives and influential artists (e.g. Don Henley) to convince them to join HIS library. The breadth of that library from the moment they released the iPOD was essential to its success. It wasn’t just a little music player. It was a way for a non-computer literate person to download not just whole albums, but individual songs, at a reasonable price, across most music labels and just about every genre. All you needed was to search it. Unlike other formats, once you bought it, it was yours forever because it would never crack or break or skip. Even if you lost the device, all you had to do is replace it and voila! all your music was restored. Revolutionary. The only downside, IMO, is the loss of the album art. I still miss that. But I digress. Had it not been for the force of Jobs’ personality and his ability to convince music executives and musicians themselves to buy into his idea, we might not have the streamlined method of buying music that we have today. Sony might have come up with their own proprietary platform, their own proprietary player, their own pricing. And then MCI would have invented their platform. Yuck. So, yes, Jobs helped change the culture. And I’m not even talking about the iPhone. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/53 "2015-10-15T21:02:48Z")
That’s the name of a column in The New Yorker: [Was Steve Jobs an Artist? | The New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/was-steve-jobs-an-artist?mbid=nl_151015_Daily_PM&CNDID=29175739&spMailingID=8159944&spUserID=NTc2NDY5MTI3MjIS1&spJobID=782074541&spReportId=NzgyMDc0NTQxS0) > [@](#): > > There are a lot of great arguments in the new film “Steve Jobs,” but one stands above the rest. Jobs and Woz—Steve Wozniak, the co-founder of Apple—are in the garage, disagreeing about the design of the Apple II. Jobs thinks that the computer should be sealed up and impossible to modify; Woz thinks it should be open and expandable, so that hobbyists can tinker with it. Jobs says that a computer should be perfect, like a work of art. Woz says that’s ridiculous. Jobs tells Woz, “Every time you say, ‘A computer is not a painting,’ I’m going to say, ‘Fuck you.’ ” Then, we flash forward more than a decade, to 1988. Jobs and Woz are backstage, and Jobs is about to unveil the first computer from his new company, NeXT. The computer is a beautiful cube that’s impractical, expensive, and doomed to fail. “A computer is not a painting,” Woz intones. “Fuck you!” Jobs replies. It ends with: > [@](#): > > In the meantime, it seems to me that “Steve Jobs,” by not taking a stand on Jobs’s art, fails to capture what was really interesting about him. Jobs fascinates not just because he was both brilliant and mean (many very successful people are both gifted and flawed) but because he was engaged in a titanic effort to create art out of technology on a mass scale—a process which was complicated not just aesthetically but morally. (Jeff Koons’s studio, while it surely employs some disgruntled M.F.A.s, is a far cry from the factories at Foxconn, with their suicide nets.) Like the hero in a novel by Thomas Mann, Jobs moved heaven and earth to realize a vision that may or may not have been worth it. He will long be remembered as a technological visionary and a gifted businessman. But did he create art, or just gadgets? That’s the question upon which his legacy depends. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/54 "2015-10-15T21:38:20Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > The iPod itself was life altering to me. I’m a music lover. I can’t tell you how much of my income has been devoted to buying music in its various formats including digital. > … > How I bought, and listened to music, completely changed after I bought my first iPod. > … > So, yes, Jobs helped change the culture. And I’m not even talking about the iPhone. Thanks for a great example of what I was referring to above. You call this “life altering.” But what exactly was altered in your life? You have and do something now, that you had and did before, just with different logistics. The new ones have advantages, some downsides too. Are you a new person? A better person? Do you have broader freedoms, new realms of ideas before you? How will our grandchildren’s generation be different, for the fact that Steve Jobs brought us iTunes, specifically, in the present one? I’m sorry, but _a more convenient delivery system standard for recorded entertainment_ seems like a pretty small achievement upon which to hang the mantle of Greatness. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/55 "2015-10-15T21:55:18Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’m sorry, but _a more convenient delivery system standard for recorded entertainment_ seems like a pretty small achievement upon which to hang the mantle of Greatness. And yet, there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/56 "2015-10-15T22:29:10Z")
Any kind of innovation can be reduced to being a mere incremental improvement. I mean, all the car ever did was provide a more convenient means of transportation. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/57 "2015-10-15T23:09:29Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > And yet, there it is. no I’d have to agree with **Peremensoe**. Not only did jobs not invents portable music players. Itunes was not the first electronic music store either so we be pretty much where we are now without it. I really am not getting what this major cultural shift was regarding electronic music that Jobs brought about. Doing what others are doing a bit better doesn’t really clear the “greatness” bar for me. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/58 "2015-10-15T23:16:06Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > Any kind of innovation can be reduced to being a mere incremental improvement. I mean, all the car ever did was provide a more convenient means of transportation. Sure, but I’d suggest the ability for people to travel further, faster and more reliably than ever before in history brings about an immense and important cultural shift. The train was so revolutionary and game-changing that the [concept of time itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_time) had to be altered. _That_ is a culture change. A music delivery system that’s a bit nicer than other ones available? I just don’t see the equivalence. I think people tend to lose a bit of perspective when talking about apple. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/59 "2015-10-16T00:39:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Henry Ford was a great man, but not necessarily a good one. Same goes for Steve Jobs. No, he was a great organizer. Witness the assembly line, possibly his greatest invention. He was a poor businessman, a tyrant who ran all his top talent off to other companies and nearly ran his own firm into the ground. Plus he was a great admirer of Hitler’s policies. Not even Steve Jobs, asshole extraordinaire, was as bad as Ford. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547/60 "2015-10-16T11:30:22Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Thanks for a great example of what I was referring to above. > > You call this “life altering.” But what exactly was altered in your life? > > You have and do something now, that you had and did before, just with different logistics. The new ones have advantages, some downsides too. > > Are you a new person? A better person? Do you have broader freedoms, new realms of ideas before you? How will our grandchildren’s generation be different, for the fact that Steve Jobs brought us iTunes, specifically, in the present one? > > I’m sorry, but _a more convenient delivery system standard for recorded entertainment_ seems like a pretty small achievement upon which to hang the mantle of Greatness. That seems to be selling things a bit short. I look around and see adults, teens and children buried in their smartphones. I see extensive commentary on this phenomenon, with much applause from Pros lauding its capabilities, and much hand-wringing from Cons - both commenting on how _different_ things are culturally now that these smartphones are ubiquitous. We can debate the degree to which Jobs was a prime mover in getting to this point, but framing the emergence of Consumer Tech as a “step up in incremental convenience” seems way too modest for its impact, now and continuing to emerge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-steve-jobs-was-a-great-man/734547.md?page=4)