# Do you think the alternation of Conservative and Liberals in Power is beneficial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402 "2008-11-19T02:21:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/21 "2008-11-20T03:28:29Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Also, you’re ignoring my point that it was the corrupt politicians that took down America, not the alteration of one philosophy to another. Wrong. “Conservatism” is an evil in itself, and always has been. > [@Lakai](#): > > The country did not go from being liberal to supporting Bush. If the public were smarter, and knew what he really stood for, he would have never got elected. That shows a failure of many things, but it does not show that the switch from liberalism to moderate conservatism was a failure. Wrong; he was RE-elected. Americans knew what he was and voted for him anyway. It was only the disastrous results of him doing what the people wanted that turned America against him. Bush is the true reflection of America’s essence; greedy, stupid, fanatical, ignorant, malignant, arrogant, bloodthirsty and sadistic. He represents what America has been corrupted into; he reflects the typical American, just with more money. And there hasn’t been any “switch from liberalism” for a long time, because liberalism hasn’t been a significant force for a long time. And it isn’t now, either; Obama is no liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/22 "2008-11-20T05:55:43Z")
> [@Aquila\_Be](#): > > Excuse my severe truncation of your quote, but what the hell did those over worshipped “Founders” really do that was so marvellously original? While I don’t think you’ll find them much worshiped, breaking free of the most powerful empire on Earth with the aid of another foreign superpower and founding a government from scratch that dealt with the needs of the colonies to see themselves as both part of a whole and as 13 separate self governing entities while remaining out from under the thumbs of England, France, Spain, or other imperialist nations with serious holdings and interest in the New World and incomparably more money and military might- that was pretty marvelously original. > [@](#): > > The only model of government they had as their main reference point was a monarchial system, was it not? Not. They had lived under a monarchical system, but they were more concerned with non-monarchical models, such as those of the ancient Greeks, the Roman Republic, and far more recent to them, the Dutch Republic. The Dutch war of independence from Spain (16th-17th centuries) and the subsequent governments they established afterwards were very much studied by them. Some argue the influence of the Iroquois League- I don’t dispute them but I’m not well read enough on that aspect to do so. > [@](#): > > After all their lengthy and secret deliberations, that’s all these over glorified “Founders” could come up with. A modified, monarchial system, “Yeah dyoooood, one man really can govern a whole nation like it was a little village”. Calling the Republic established in the Constitution a modified monarchical system is roughly akin to calling Protestantism a modified form of Akhenaton’s sun worship. There are definitely similarities, but it’s at the same time something new entirely. > [@](#): > > Except, instead of a hereditary monarch it involves some kind of convoluted election process to decide which Godhead will be above the law for a defined period. That the president not be above the law was of extreme importance. Read the Declaration of Independence- the entire document is an indictment of George III and his ministers. > [@](#): > > What the hell does it matter who “gets in”. The “people” are, at all times, powerless to approve or reject the usually incomprehensible and biblical length laws that are dumped on their heads, willy nilly, by the majority party that wins any election on a winner take all basis. Dyoooof… ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/23 "2008-11-20T07:16:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Wrong. “Conservatism” is an evil in itself, and always has been. Even the Bill Clinton kind? You don’t think we needed welfare reform? > [@](#): > > Wrong; he was RE-elected. Americans knew what he was and voted for him anyway. It was only the disastrous results of him doing what the people wanted that turned America against him. Bush is the true reflection of America’s essence; greedy, stupid, fanatical, ignorant, malignant, arrogant, bloodthirsty and sadistic. He represents what America has been corrupted into; he reflects the typical American, just with more money. 2004 was a failure of the opposition party. The the fact that Rove made Kerry look worst than Bush does not mean everyone liked Bush. > [@](#): > > And there hasn’t been any “switch from liberalism” for a long time, because liberalism hasn’t been a significant force for a long time. And it isn’t now, either; Obama is no liberal. I put the switch from liberalism to conservatism in 1980, when Regan tapped into voter frustration over the Carter government and made them believe that government interference would always make things worst. The jury is out on Obama. We’ll just have to wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/24 "2008-11-20T10:31:12Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Even the Bill Clinton kind? You don’t think we needed welfare reform? No. I remember what “welfare reform” was about; I listened to the hatred and contempt of the poor. “Let them freeze, let them starve” was the general attitude; not some desire to “reform” anything. > [@Lakai](#): > > 2004 was a failure of the opposition party. The the fact that Rove made Kerry look worst than Bush does not mean everyone liked Bush. They voted for a fool, a liar, a torturer and a mass murderer. I don’t care in the slightest if they **liked** him or not. > [@Lakai](#): > > I put the switch from liberalism to conservatism in 1980, when Regan tapped into voter frustration over the Carter government and made them believe that government interference would always make things worst. Reagan tapped into America’s worst qualities and encouraged them. America’s bigotry, it’s arrogance, it’s selfishness, it’s malice, it’s religious fanaticism. That’s how he got elected, and re-elected. When the poor were cast out to freeze on the street, when gays died of AIDS, when American backed and trained death squads and dictators raped, tortured and murdered; those were the sort of things that Reagan stood for, and why he got into power and stayed there. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/25 "2008-11-20T19:31:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. I remember what “welfare reform” was about; I listened to the hatred and contempt of the poor. “Let them freeze, let them starve” was the general attitude; not some desire to “reform” anything. Lets pretend for a second that they did want to reform welfare and did not want to kill all poor people. Would you be OK with it then? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They voted for a fool, a liar, a torturer and a mass murderer. I don’t care in the slightest if they **liked** him or not. Well it should matter if they liked him more than Kerry. They might not have approved of Bush, but they weren’t exactly given a better alternative. The point is that the country was never on the same wavelength as Bush. The switch from Liberalism to Conservatism did not turn the country into fanatics. Our leaders took that course, and the public was slow to realize that this was not the conservatism that they signed up for. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Reagan tapped into America’s worst qualities and encouraged them. America’s bigotry, it’s arrogance, it’s selfishness, it’s malice, it’s religious fanaticism. That’s how he got elected, and re-elected. When the poor were cast out to freeze on the street, when gays died of AIDS, when American backed and trained death squads and dictators raped, tortured and murdered; those were the sort of things that Reagan stood for, and why he got into power and stayed there. We do these things regardless of our politics. These things did not happen because the nation became center right. LBJ was our most liberal president and yet he gave us Vietnam. A war that caused much more harm than what Bush managed in Iraq. The failings of bad politicians did not happen because we suddenly became conservative, they were always around and the public always denounced them when they figured out what was happening. A sluggish reaction to Bush doesn’t prove that the country became conservative and because of that they now want to torture and murder. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/26 "2008-11-21T04:58:06Z")
Personally I’d like to see the New Democratic Party get into power on an occasional basis as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/27 "2008-11-21T05:43:54Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Personally I’d like to see the New Democratic Party get into power on an occasional basis as well. Nah. Even their provincial premiers, like Rae and Dosanjh see the light and jump the ship to the Liberals for the sake of the whole country. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/28 "2008-11-21T07:25:52Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Well it should matter if they liked him more than Kerry. They might not have approved of Bush, but they weren’t exactly given a better alternative. Kerry was better than Bush. Nearly anyone would have been. They liked Bush better because he is ignorant, stupid and evil, like them. > [@Lakai](#): > > The point is that the country was never on the same wavelength as Bush. The switch from Liberalism to Conservatism did not turn the country into fanatics. Our leaders took that course, and the public was slow to realize that this was not the conservatism that they signed up for. No, the economy crashed, and the war turned into an embarrassment. There was no moral upheaval, no revulsion at what Bush had done. Just embarrassment that he did it badly, and fear of the economic problems. > [@Lakai](#): > > The failings of bad politicians did not happen because we suddenly became conservative, they were always around and the public always denounced them when they figured out what was happening. Garbage. There’s been no “denouncement” by the general public; just irritation at Bush screwing up. > [@Lakai](#): > > A sluggish reaction to Bush doesn’t prove that the country became conservative and because of that they now want to torture and murder. Again, garbage. Americans reelected Bush, because America is collectively evil. We represent torture and mass murder, something we confirmed we wanted by re-electing him. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/29 "2008-11-21T11:34:38Z")
Der Trihs is evil, supports torture and mass murder. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/30 "2008-11-21T12:11:46Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Der Trihs is evil, supports torture and mass murder. Got it. No. I oppose America and despise it because of the way it behaves. The majority of Americans however, don’t. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/31 "2008-11-21T13:21:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No more than the alternation of sickness and health is beneficial. I hate it when you conservatives refer to the liberals as a sickness. Get off yer high horse man. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/32 "2008-11-21T13:22:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. I oppose America and despise it because of the way it behaves. The majority of Americans however, don’t. But you live in America,…right? For how long? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/33 "2008-11-21T14:08:58Z")
If **socialists** were to alternate in power with liberals, now, **that** might be beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/34 "2008-11-21T19:13:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If **socialists** were to alternate in power with liberals, now, **that** might be beneficial. Like I said, man, you need the New Democrats 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/35 "2008-11-21T19:22:13Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Like I said, man, you need the New Democrats 😉 [We tried, we tried . . .](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_(United_States)) ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/36 "2008-11-21T21:30:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Kerry was better than Bush. Nearly anyone would have been. They liked Bush better because he is ignorant, stupid and evil, like them. I disagree. I don’t think enough people follow politics closely enough to realize what politicians are really about. Ignorance doesn’t always mean evil. The public just didn’t know. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, the economy crashed, and the war turned into an embarrassment. There was no moral upheaval, no revulsion at what Bush had done. Just embarrassment that he did it badly, and fear of the economic problems. > > Garbage. There’s been no “denouncement” by the general public; just irritation at Bush screwing up. We voted for Democrats in 2006 before the economy collapsed. There was always moral upheaval about domestic spying and torture. 2006 is as good of a denouncement of extreme conservatism as you are going to get. The backlash against Sarah Palin this year was another. The only election where it looked like we upheld extremism was 2004, but that was because of political ignorance. The country was never turned evil by the conservatives. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Again, garbage. Americans reelected Bush, because America is collectively evil. We represent torture and mass murder, something we confirmed we wanted by re-electing him. So did we represent torture and mass murder when we elected LBJ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402/37 "2008-11-21T22:00:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Absolutely. I would’ve voted for McCain in 2000, and I thought Clinton was a great break from 12 years of Reagan/Bush. What would be even better, IMO, is if we could always have the executive and legislative branches controlled by different parties. That **never** happens in [parliamentary systems,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_system) but they do not for that reason appear to have a poor track record. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-alternation-of-conservative-and-liberals-in-power-is-beneficial/473402.md?page=1)