# Do you think the death of newspapers leads to more civic corruption? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319 "2009-08-13T19:05:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/1 "2009-08-13T19:05:28Z")
I’ve seen that argument many times from despairing newspaper columnists. They say that when there were three newspapers in every large city and one in every large suburb or small city, that there were people assigned to go to all the board meetings and follow stories from proposal to vote and could reveal who was getting influenced by which contributor or who was hiring relatives. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/2 "2009-08-13T20:25:34Z")
The question is whether the internet can become an adequate replacement. My immediate thought is that is cannot–that in fact the internet exacerbates partisanship and delusional thinking. The number of people who believe in outright lies seems to be massively increasing. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/3 "2009-08-13T21:01:41Z")
It’s interesting, I’ve been reading the memoirs of Lee Kwan Yew, an influential Singaporean politician. He claims that newspapers in Singapore were rabidly partisan, and did not have the ideal of journalistic impartiality that pervades the West (at least in theory.) As a result, he encouraged politicians to contest false claims in the press in libel suits when they printed obvious falsehoods. So instead of having the press constrain politicians, you have the politicians and legal system checking the excesses of the press. The press can still function to expose legitimate corruption and all that good stuff. I am not convinced that this is an optimal setup, but it might be optimal if your press is partisan to begin with. And since internet journalism is likely to lose the veneer of objectivity that traditional media have, maybe the Singaporean system is where we’re headed in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/4 "2009-08-13T22:15:18Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The question is whether the internet can become an adequate replacement. No it can’t because Google has an effective monopoly over content. (Effective doesn’t mean someone CAN’T compete, but it’s too impractical to do). For example this is parodied on _the Simpsons_, Burns buys up all the media in Springfield and Lisa starts and online newsletter. And of course all the people of Springfield read her site. In reality Lisa’s site would be unknown, and even if it did get indexed by Google it’d be on page 500 of the search results. No one would ever have known it exists After Watergate, papers pretty much stopped investigative reporting and moved toward marketing of other natures. The FCC for instance has cried “We have four major networks, you get four opinions.” No, not true, time and time again we get the same stories presented in the same way in a slightly different order. The Internet is fine, if you can find someone but too often blogs and such exist to make a click so the author gets paid. The press has always been slanted, but in days of yore, so to speak, you had not one, not two, not even three, but four or more papers all competing hard. Politicians have also learned very well how to manipulate the media. Both President Obama and former President GW Bush have simply excluded news sources they don’t like. They simply won’t make themselves available if they don’t like them. This is seen with presidental news conferences (and this goes back to the pre-Kennedy days,). It’s the President that chooses which reporter (thus which questions) he will answer. If that reporter asks something the President doesn’t like) that reporter will not get another chance. Thus his career goes south. Bottom line: Competition is always better, provided it is TRUE and UNREGULATED. If it is not, competiton is WORSE, because it gives you the illusion of choice, when there really is none. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/5 "2009-08-14T01:08:18Z")
Detroit is down to one newspaper. It is on line 7 days a week. They deliver papers twice a week. We have no corruption in Detroit at all. Unless you count the mayor getting booted in a scandal and going to jail and the police force serving themselves. Then maybe a little. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/6 "2009-08-14T07:22:13Z")
The thing that newspaper columnists usually forget is that the average person really, really, _really_ doesn’t give a shit if the Minister For Silly Walks gave a lucrative contract to a firm run by his brother in law. People assume this sort of thing is going on all the time and there’s nothing they can do about it, so why get worked up over it? Most people are too busy dealing with their own lives to worry about it- especially in Western Democracies (not the US, apparently, though) where it’s generally understood that the country will keep ticking along regardless of who’s in charge. ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/7 "2009-08-14T22:57:24Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The question is whether the internet can become an adequate replacement. > > My immediate thought is that is cannot–that in fact the internet exacerbates partisanship and delusional thinking. The number of people who believe in outright lies seems to be massively increasing. We’ve always had demagogues, but they do come in waves. The current wave seems to be caused by hate radio, and to nearly the same degree by “fair and balanced” TV hate mongers. I don’t think it’s an accident that these shows are owned by billionaires from other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/8 "2009-08-14T23:29:18Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The thing that newspaper columnists usually forget is that the average person really, really, _really_ doesn’t give a shit if the Minister For Silly Walks gave a lucrative contract to a firm run by his brother in law. People assume this sort of thing is going on all the time and there’s nothing they can do about it, so why get worked up over it? Because the pothole situation is getting out of hand and the Parks department doesn’t have the bucks to keep the gardens weeded and the grass mowed. Meanwhile _someone’s nephew_ is putting up ‘thematic elements’ all over the city at $6,000 a pop. Newspapers provided a mechanism for the periodic exposure and pruning of this sort of corruption. Now that the papers are dying, I don’t see anything which wopuld continue to encourage city officials to have at least a _little_ respect for the law. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/9 "2009-08-15T00:35:18Z")
I recently got a job as the Editor of a small weekly newspaper (circulation around 15,000) after working in television and radio news for many years. We aren’t making a billion dollars a year, but we’re surviving. Why? Hyperlocal news. People can find out 100 different places what happened in Iraq today…but there is only one place to read a local sports article or read about “that bad wreck yesterday on the highway”. Couple that with local legal news (who is being forclosed on or divorcing) and you have a product local people are interested in. All our content is on the internet of course, because the internet audience and newspaper readers are, in my opinion, two exclusive groups with very little crossover. We are working with a local radio station to raise our daily profile and trying to be an interesting and relevant product to keep interest level high so the advertisers will view us as a profitable and attractive platform. The other factor is credibility. Under the banner of a newspaper, internet readers assume (correctly) that basic rules of jounalism are being followed. Since the information is published, rules following the gathering of information, sourcing and preventing libel, etc., are being followed. Therefore they can take the content more seriously than that of a blog with an ideological bent. I am eventually working toward a model where the internet is updated several times a day as information comes in and the weekly paper becomes for of a long form, feature heavy publication with stories that are more “evergreen”. It doesn’t serve anyone to print news that is five or six days old by the time the paper comes out. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/10 "2009-08-15T00:58:16Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Because the pothole situation is getting out of hand and the Parks department doesn’t have the bucks to keep the gardens weeded and the grass mowed. Meanwhile _someone’s nephew_ is putting up ‘thematic elements’ all over the city at $6,000 a pop. > Newspapers provided a mechanism for the periodic exposure and pruning of this sort of corruption. Now that the papers are dying, I don’t see anything which wopuld continue to encourage city officials to have at least a _little_ respect for the law. Newspapers are simply going online rather than being printed on dead trees- so it’s not like one day there will be people in hats with “Press” in the headband, carrying flashbulb cameras, suddenly leaping out from behind trees to catch Pollies with their hand in the till, and then the next day they could have a Money Fight in the City Council Chambers and no-one would notice. The difference is, that instead of the next day’s _Cottonview Post-Herald_ having the story on page eight, it’ll be on the paper’s website and go straight to everyone in town via e-mail, iPhone, Kindle, text message, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/11 "2009-08-15T01:12:15Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Newspapers are simply going online rather than being printed on dead trees- so it’s not like one day there will be people in hats with “Press” in the headband, carrying flashbulb cameras, suddenly leaping out from behind trees to catch Pollies with their hand in the till, and then the next day they could have a Money Fight in the City Council Chambers and no-one would notice. My paper’s online presence has decreased along with its dead tree circulation. They no longer cover such things as burglary and vandalism, or most city council meetings. Should the trend continue, there will indeed come a day when they could have a Money Fight in the City Council Chambers and no-one would notice. I expect the nation will witness an uptick in machine politics, (eg Tweed or Daly), followed by serious scandal, and only then some sort of effective city by city online news distribution system. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/12 "2009-08-15T01:28:12Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > My paper’s online presence has decreased along with its dead tree circulation. > They no longer cover such things as burglary and vandalism, or most city council meetings. > Should the trend continue, there will indeed come a day when they could have a Money Fight in the City Council Chambers and no-one would notice. Nah, there will always be _someone_ with too much spare time and a blog to go and report on that sort of thing. Especially in the US, where people get so much more worked up about their politics than they do elsewhere, for some reason. > [@](#): > > I expect the nation will witness an uptick in machine politics, (eg Tweed or Daly), followed by serious scandal, and only then some sort of effective city by city online news distribution system. Sorry, I don’t understand. What’s “Machine Politics” and what’s Tweed or Daly? (I don’t live in the US, FTR) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/13 "2009-08-15T01:58:42Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Sorry, I don’t understand. What’s “Machine Politics” and what’s Tweed or Daly? (I don’t live in the US, FTR) [Political Machine:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_machine) > [@](#): > > A political machine (or simply machine) is a disciplined political organization in which an authoritative boss or small group commands the support of a corps of supporters (usually campaign workers), who receive rewards for their efforts. Although these elements are common to most political parties and organizations, they are essential to political machines, which rely on hierarchy and rewards for political power. Machines sometimes have a political boss, often rely on patronage, the spoils system, “behind-the-scenes” control, and longstanding political ties within the structure of a representative democracy Tweed ran New York back in the nineteenth century: > [@](#): > > William Marcy Tweed (April 3, 1823 – April 12, 1878), known as “Boss Tweed,” was an American politician most famous for his leadership of Tammany Hall, the Democratic Party political machine that played a major role in the politics of 19th century New York. At the height of his influence, Tweed was the third-largest landowner in New York City, a director of the Erie Railway, the Tenth National Bank, and the New-York Printing Company, as well as proprietor of the Metropolitan Hotel.[1] > > Tweed was elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1852, and the New York City Board of Advisors in 1856. In 1858, Tweed became the “Grand Sachem” of Tammany Hall. He was elected to the New York State Senate in 1867. > > Tweed was convicted for stealing between $40 million and $200 million[2] (based on the inflation or devaluation rate of the dollar since 1870 of 2.7%, this is between 1.5 and 8 billion 2009 dollars) from New York City taxpayers through political corruption. He died in the Ludlow Street Jail. > **[William M. Tweed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Tweed)** > > William Magear "Boss" Tweed\[note 1\] (April 3, 1823 – April 12, 1878) was an American politician most notable for being the political boss of Tammany Hall, the Democratic Party's political machine that played a major role in the politics of 19th-century New York City and State. > At the height of his influence, Tweed was the third-largest landowner in New York City, a director of the Erie Railroad, a director of the Tenth National Bank, a director of the New-York Printing Company, the proprietor ... Richard Daley and friends ran Chicago back in the sixties: > [@](#): > > Richard Joseph Daley (May 15, 1902–December 20, 1976) served for 21 years as the undisputed Democratic boss of Chicago and is considered by historians to be the “last of the big city bosses.” He played a major role in the history of the Democratic Party, especially with his support of John F. Kennedy in 1960 and of Hubert Humphrey in 1968. > **[Richard J. Daley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Daley)** > > Richard Joseph Daley (May 15, 1902 – December 20, 1976) was an American politician who served as the mayor of Chicago from 1955, and the chairman of the Cook County Democratic Party from 1953, until his death. He has been called "the last of the big city bosses" who controlled and mobilized American cities. He was the patriarch of a powerful Chicago political family. His son Richard M. Daley went on to serve as mayor of Chicago, and another son, William M. Daley, served as United States Secret... ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/14 "2009-08-15T02:02:32Z")
Oh yes, while I agree blogs might work to keep some honesty in the administration of the larger cities, I don’t see towns of 250,000 or smaller being properly served by local bloggers. Maybe more locally focused blogging, and investigative blogging will spring up in the next decade or so, I’ve just not seen much sign of it around here. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-death-of-newspapers-leads-to-more-civic-corruption/506319/15 "2009-08-15T03:29:13Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Oh yes, while I agree blogs might work to keep some honesty in the administration of the larger cities, I don’t see towns of 250,000 or smaller being properly served by local bloggers. Maybe more locally focused blogging, and investigative blogging will spring up in the next decade or so, I’ve just not seen much sign of it around here. Thanks for the explanation of “Political Machines”- they sound very complicated and rather un-democratic; kind of like extremely influential Lobby Groups, if I’m not mistaken. 250,000 isn’t a “Town”- that’s a city in most places, at least in most people’s thinking in this part of the world. 25,000 people towns aren’t likely to have widely-read local blogs at the moment, true, but that will, I suspect, change in the future. That and people in smallish towns tend to know each other a lot better, and so- _Hot Fuzz_ aside- people really just want things to tick over and make sure the town is being run reasonably well, and there’s not as great a need for conspiracies and byzantine politics in a town with 15,000 people in it.