# Do you think the store needed to apologize? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2011, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599 "2011-11-02T08:01:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/181 "2011-11-03T14:03:18Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Do you work there? Have you seen this happen? How do you know this? What are the circumstances under which this theft happens? Do people tend to leave the food wrappers in their carts and then walk out without paying? No, I do not work there. However, when I worked in construction I was a frequent customer. I have seen people arrested and led away in cuffs both for shoplifting small items and for eating the food and not paying. The local hardware stores are, frankly, a bit hardnosed about these things but apparently they do have a significant problem with shoplifting. Whether or not the people left wrappers in their cart, in their pockets, or on the shelf I don’t know, since in general when I see someone getting hauled away by the cops I don’t get involved. When the parties involved are yelling about food eaten and not paid for, or five drill bits “forgotten” in a pocket, it’s not that hard to draw some conclusions about what was going on. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/182 "2011-11-03T14:06:53Z")
rap·per noun \ˈra-pər Definition of RAPPER : a performer of rap music wrap·per noun \ˈra-pər Definition of WRAPPER : that in which something is wrapped ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/183 "2011-11-03T14:08:37Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > Also - Hate how people say what if they where black or such - sorry every colour of person should be treated the same - and same for pregnant women or ones with kids or you will suddenly have shoplifters and other thieves with kids in toe or pregnant knowing that its a ‘get out of jail free’ option I agree, every person SHOULD receive equal treatment regardless of race, color, creed or gender but we all know that _in practice_ that doesn’t always happen. Some time ago my landlord was targeted for an attempted robbery by two thugs who had brought along their three children. As it happens, my landlord isn’t someone you want to fuck with and the robbery attempt wasn’t successful. Nonetheless, the two would-be-muggers brought three children along to the crime scene, and the kids got to witness daddy and uncle assaulting their target, as well as said target whacking daddy over the head with a steel pipe. Uncle told the police they had taken the kids along to diffuse suspicion. Yes, there ARE criminals who attempt to use kids, physical state, whatever, to try to look innocent or something. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/184 "2011-11-03T14:28:41Z")
for goodness sake it’s got little to do with whether she’s pregnant, have children or had eaten something more expensive. i don’t want to shop in a place that has so little respect for their paying customers or be subject to such an ordeal at the slightest hint of infraction. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/185 "2011-11-03T14:34:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, I’m not. I’d be begging the question if I was establishing my own rule and then applying it. But I’m not. I’m applying the rules that have been set by the courts. Begging the question is when you assume your conclusion in your premise. Essentially, your argument is she stole, therefore, she stole. Obviously that’s not logically sound. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/186 "2011-11-03T14:37:37Z")
[quote=“Hogfather65, post:180, topic:601599”] > [@](#): > > No, intent is relevant at all points. If the police found no reasonable cause to believe she intended to steal, then they should not have arrested her. The laws are very clear on this. No intent means no crime.[\QUOTE] > > Bull shit. Sorry officer I did not intend to speen - it just sort of happened, I was not paing attention to my speed I am so sorry… Show me a speeding statute where intent is part of the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/187 "2011-11-03T14:51:54Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > No. Whether or not there was intent is a key point in determining whether or not a crime occurred in the first place. It’s in the definition of the crime, every bit as much as the actual taking of a thing. If there was no intent to take the sandwiches without paying, then the sandwiches (by definition) were not stolen. > > Police officers are not required to make an arrest every time someone alleges a crime, they should use their discretion in first determining whether or not a crime has been committed in the first place. Glad we dont need a judge or jury to say who is guilty after all here in Mega-City 1 we have the Police (Judges) to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/188 "2011-11-03T14:59:43Z")
[quote=“treis, post:186, topic:601599”] > [@Hogfather65](#): > > Show me a speeding statute where intent is part of the crime. Cant - dont know the UK law that well - but tell me if I go to the shop not intending on theiving and on my way out I pick up something on the spur of the moment - is that intent - I did not intend to do it till i did it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/189 "2011-11-03T15:03:40Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > I did not intend to do it till i did it. You’re not doing this thread any favors. Please put more thought into your posts before posting. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/190 "2011-11-03T15:09:51Z")
What I am taking from this is that next time I go to Home Depot I should definitely not try to eat a rapper while in a shopping cart. Especially before we get to the checkout line. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/191 "2011-11-03T15:40:47Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > tell me if I go to the shop not intending on theiving and on my way out I pick up something on the spur of the moment - is that intent - I did not intend to do it till i did it. Did you pick up the thing intending to take it out of the store without paying? That’s intent. Let’s proceed with an easy to understand example. You select 20 cans of soup from a supermarket. The cashier checks you out and you pay for 19 cans of soup. You walk out the door with 20 cans, are you a thief? If you stuffed one of the cans into your pants so that the cashier could only charge you for 19, yes you are a thief. Intent. If you presented all 20 cans to the cashier and she simply failed to ring up one of them, no you are not a thief. No intent. When the store looks at your receipt and only sees 19 instead of 20, they call the cops, who show up and either arrest you for stuffing soup in your pants, or let you go because… no crime has been committed. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/192 "2011-11-03T15:54:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Did you pick up the thing intending to take it out of the store without paying? That’s intent. > > Let’s proceed with an easy to understand example. You select 20 cans of soup from a supermarket. The cashier checks you out and you pay for 19 cans of soup. You walk out the door with 20 cans, are you a thief? > > If you stuffed one of the cans into your pants so that the cashier could only charge you for 19, yes you are a thief. Intent. > > If you presented all 20 cans to the cashier and she simply failed to ring up one of them, no you are not a thief. No intent. > > When the store looks at your receipt and only sees 19 instead of 20, they call the cops, who show up and either arrest you for stuffing soup in your pants, or let you go because… no crime has been committed. Does not compute about the 20 cans if you presented all 20 and the cashier made the mistake - you cannot be held responcible as the cameras would show you where not to blame - so no crime - why would the police be called when it was the store at fault and not you? AND What I was saying is if she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper then thats her intent even if she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay. She may not have intended to do (_she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay_) till she did it (_she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper_). Does that clear up what I’m saying. The previous post about ‘intend to do it till i did it’ was to show that intent only goes back till the point she made the decision and did not pay ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/193 "2011-11-03T16:03:47Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] The police shouldn’t arrest people if a crime hasn’t been committed, and intent is a necessary component of the crime. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Police officers are not required to make an arrest every time someone alleges a crime, they should use their discretion in first determining whether or not a crime has been committed in the first place. [/quote] How do you know the police _didn’t_ use their discretion. The only articles we have seen only have the women’s point of view, and although she claim that there was no intent we really only have her word for that. Given that the police were actually there on the scene, I find it totally believable that they could have had good reason (i.e. probable cause) to believe she intended to shoplift. Maybe they thought she was lying, based on good reasons - maybe she wasn’t very convincing when she told her side of the story to the police, maybe she had shifty body language or an inconsistent or implausible story when she was talking to them. Maybe she told the store that she forgot the wrapper in her pocket, then after sitting around for four hours she told the police she left it in the cart, and when the police compared stories they decided she was lying rather than confused. This is all hypothetical, but who knows really - I don’t for sure, since I wasn’t there. And while _ideally_ I would hope that police don’t arrest someone if a crime hasn’t been committed, that’s an impossible standard to hold them to in real life. If they honestly thought they had probable cause to arrest her (she ate the sandwich and left without paying, and they think it’s probable she intended to do so), then they did nothing wrong by arresting her. It’s up to the prosecutor to decide if there’s enough evidence to press charges, and it’s up to a judge/jury to convict - it’s not up to the police. If the police could only arrest people who are definitely guilty, then why even bother having a court system at all? I mean if only guilty people should be arrested when there’s overwhelming evidence, what’s the point of a trial? And the fact that they ended up not pressing charges doesn’t mean that she actually did not shoplift. For all we know, she did intend to shoplift, but the Safety and the prosecutor exercised discretion not to press charges because it would look bad in the media to prosecute a pregnant women who’s in the military. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/194 "2011-11-03T16:06:08Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > What I was saying is if she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper then thats her intent even if she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay. “That’s” her intent? What is? In your scenario, are you saying she originally intended to pay but decided at a later time to see if she could get away with shoplifting? > [@](#): > > She may not have intended to do (_she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay_) till she did it (_she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper_). Again, is it because she wants to get away with not paying for the sandwich or because of some innocent reason, such as thinking the wrapper was someone else’s garbage? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/195 "2011-11-03T16:09:21Z")
A few weeks ago, I was in Walgreens buying whatever one buys at Walgreens, plus I had put a package of chewy Sweetarts in my handbasket. I went to the cashier, paid, she bagged my items and I grabbed the bags and still had the basket in my other hand and was dropping the bags back in as I left and I had already gone through the scanners when I looked down and saw the Sweetarts were still in the basket. It’s really only luck that I looked down when I was putting the bags back in the basket (and honestly, it was weird that I was putting the bags back in the basket at all. I’m not sure why I was doing that). So, I did exactly what the people in this case did. I put something in my basket and then left without paying for it. I happened to catch it after passing the scanners and went back and handed it to the cashier, but it was just luck that I did catch it. I’m sure I’m just a terrible, horrible thief who should have been arrested and shrieked about on a messageboard. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/196 "2011-11-03T16:14:17Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > What I am taking from this is that next time I go to Home Depot I should definitely not try to eat a rapper while in a shopping cart. Especially before we get to the checkout line. > [@](#): > > During that time, employees milled in and out of the break room and sat at a table with the family, eating their dinner without ever looking up, even though Nicole was “balling her eyes out.” Was she balling or eating the rapper? Either way, it doesn’t look good. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/197 "2011-11-03T16:17:52Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > Does not compute about the 20 cans if you presented all 20 and the cashier made the mistake - you cannot be held responcible as the cameras would show you where not to blame - so no crime - why would the police be called when it was the store at fault and not you? > > AND > > What I was saying is if she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper then thats her intent even if she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay. She may not have intended to do (_she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay_) till she did it (_she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper_). > > Does that clear up what I’m saying. The previous post about ‘intend to do it till i did it’ was to show that intent only goes back till the point she made the decision and did not pay But there’s really no evidence she ever made the decision not to pay. The far more likely scenario is that she unloaded the cart, missed the wrappers, and didn’t pay on account of error, not malice. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/198 "2011-11-03T16:18:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > A few weeks ago, I was in Walgreens buying whatever one buys at Walgreens, plus I had put a package of chewy Sweetarts in my handbasket. I went to the cashier, paid, she bagged my items and I grabbed the bags and still had the basket in my other hand and was dropping the bags back in as I left and I had already gone through the scanners when I looked down and saw the Sweetarts were still in the basket. It’s really only luck that I looked down when I was putting the bags back in the basket (and honestly, it was weird that I was putting the bags back in the basket at all. I’m not sure why I was doing that). > > So, I did exactly what the people in this case did. Well, I once went to the store and pretended to forget a case of soda underneath my cart. So, I did exactly what the people in this case did. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/199 "2011-11-03T16:30:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Sure, just leave the three year old on a park bench overnight, she’ll be alright! > > You do realize that “taking the child” wasn’t done as punishment here, it was done to ensure the safety of the kid, right? > [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > Ok, if they’re arrested, what do you want the police to do with the kid? Let it hang out in the drunk tank? > > Once the parents were arrested the police had no choice other than to call CPS. > > The fact of the matter is, whether they intended to pay for the sandwiches or not, _they did not pay for them_. It doesn’t matter if it’s $5 in sandwiches or $500 in jewelry. If you take something without paying for it it is theft. Yes, they did have a choice. I think MsWhatsit came up with many fine solutions in her previous post. > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Yeah, but the kid’s parents weren’t incapacitated in an accident, were they? They were arrested for shoplifting $5 worth of sandwiches. That’s ridiculous. > > You are correct. The letter of the law was satisfied when two people were arrested for shoplifting because they forgot to pay for two sandwiches that they ate in a store. It was further satisfied when their 3-year-old child, who is certainly not old enough to understand what is going on, was removed to the custody of total strangers overnight. And in this case, the letter of the law was retarded, and someone involved should have stopped the process before it got this out of hand. Here’s an idea: Arrest dad and let mom go home with the kid. Here’s another idea: Let the kid go along to the police station and hang out with alternating parents in a waiting area while the other parent is fingerprinted and photographed. Here’s a third idea: Don’t arrest anybody and just let them pay for their fucking sandwiches. The last I checked, habitual shoplifters usually don’t bother to pay for $50 in additional groceries to cleverly cover their tracks when sandwich-stealing. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599/200 "2011-11-03T16:45:53Z")
> [@Hogfather65](#): > > Does not compute about the 20 cans if you presented all 20 and the cashier made the mistake - you cannot be held responcible as the cameras would show you where not to blame - so no crime - why would the police be called when it was the store at fault and not you? You know that those receipt checkers are at the exits in large part to prevent cashiers from helping their friends steal stuff, by pretending to ring it up. > [@](#): > > What I was saying is if she gets to the bottom of her cart and does not bring up the wrapper then thats her intent even if she put the wrapper in the cart intending to pay. I don’t think anyone is arguing that her intent when eating the sandwich has any bearing on the criminality of her actions. It’s her intent when she leaves without paying. If she noticed the wrapper, realized that it was from her sandwich, and chose to leave it in the cart, she committed a crime. If she did not notice the wrapper, and did not intend to walk out without paying for her sandwich, it’s not a crime. She owes the store money, but she didn’t commit a crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-think-the-store-needed-to-apologize/601599.md?page=11)