# Do you want China to prosper or fail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830 "2012-01-27T04:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/21 "2012-01-28T02:43:23Z")
I want China to prosper. The better China’s economy, the more demand they will have for our stuff! Then we’ll be the backwater economy selling shitty stuff to them for a change! ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/22 "2012-01-28T03:29:34Z")
I lived there for two years. I want them to prosper. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/23 "2012-01-28T03:34:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > if history has shown one thing, it is that prosperous countries (who are not the US) don’ t get into wars unnecessarily. You mean, like WW1? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/24 "2012-01-28T04:39:22Z")
This idea that China is going to get into random wars just because is kind of absurd. I think the US is a lot more likely to get in on that game. While China will posture in it’s quest for regional hegemony, it’s unlikely to start and actual war. China is above all practical, and a war is not practical for China. They have no way to hold new territory, there is no point for them. I would like for China to prosper. The amount of poverty they’ve eliminated is amazing, and if it continues it will be one of the greatest stories in human history. But I do think change is needed, and it won’t be easy. The Communist Party has indeed increased freedoms and done a lot for the economy. But they didn’t do this for the good of anyone- they did this because they saw it was the best way for them to maintain power. I have no doubts that if they needed to drive China into the ground to retain power, they’d do so. So this idea of “slow freedom” is nothing more than a dream. The freedom is there because it serves the party, and once it stops serving the party they have no use for it. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, and I fear that it won’t be pretty. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/25 "2012-01-28T04:48:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You mean, like WW1? Ah WWI. Lets see the war which Germany had because it wished to increase its colonial influence and dominate Europe for its industry, the war between colonial have and have nots. Yes that war. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/26 "2012-01-28T04:48:42Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > To the OP, I have no idea why the tour guides told your boyfriend that. Except that there have probably been some well meaning but asinine tour group members that went wy over the top to get in the the government’s face. Honestly, the Chinese government really doesn’t care unless it’s egrarious. That was my experience wandering alone in the south for a month. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/27 "2012-01-28T04:54:11Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > I think you’re splitting hairs here a bit. You’re right that most would likely be okay with Chinese economic prosperity if that’s all there was to it (although I suspect that Japan and Korea don’t really want them as a competitor). But economic prosperity leads to influence and power in other areas, so the issues can’t really be neatly separated. Yes they can be. China has had a world class military for near half a century, a military which sent the US (at the height of its power) running from N Korea, the Indians out of NEFA and gave the Vietnamese a good thrashing. The Chinese have since the 1980’s not been particularly agressive towards anyone (even Taiwan) because they don’t want it to interfere with their growth. Note the wars I talk about, occurred before the current Chinese miracle. And anyway, the OP is not particularly interested in China’s neighbours, s/he is simply interested in China’s prosperity or lack of it. Apparently these evil orientals cannot be trusted to be wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/28 "2012-01-28T05:28:23Z")
**Missed edit Window** Also, on the “spreading” of Chinas economic model. It will spread if it works…and won’t if it dose not. Right now, it seems to be working. The OP it appears, does not care whether or not a model actually improves the life of its citizens or brings prosperity, but it should be the “right model”. It does not matter whether or not it actually has any positive effects. ---
**Author:** ![Enlightening\_Meditation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@Enlightening\_Meditation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enlightening_Meditation)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/29 "2012-01-28T05:29:47Z")
I want for China to prosper in a more responsible manner without rigging its currency and without ignoring the concept of protecting intellectual property rights. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/30 "2012-01-28T06:19:34Z")
> [@Enlightening\_Meditation](#): > > I want for China to prosper in a more responsible manner without rigging its currency and without ignoring the concept of protecting intellectual property rights. In other words, it should not act like everyone else in human history who has prospered. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/31 "2012-01-28T06:38:13Z")
> [@Enlightening\_Meditation](#): > > I want for China to prosper in a more responsible manner without rigging its currency and without ignoring the concept of protecting intellectual property rights. My sentiments exactly. I do not want China to prosper by blatantly counterfeiting or otherwise ripping off other people’s work. That would ultimately be more destructive to the USA and to the global economy. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/32 "2012-01-28T06:39:31Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > In other words, it should not act like everyone else in human history who has prospered. Are you seriously suggesting that the only people who prosper are the ones who manipulate their own currency? Or those who pirate the works of other people? With all due respect, do you seriously want to pin your hat on that claim? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/33 "2012-01-28T09:44:53Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that the only people who prosper are the ones who manipulate their own currency? Or those who pirate the works of other people? > > With all due respect, do you seriously want to pin your hat on that claim? Lets see. In a time before fiat currency, [who](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history#History_and_background) protected their goods from overseas competition through tariffs. Or who tried to do something similar across its [trading bloc](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Preference) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/34 "2012-01-28T15:47:00Z")
I can never understand where we get off thinking we should have a say in China’s economic policy. They are free to run their economy, and we are free to trade or not trade with them as we see fit. The real debate is that we want to trade with them- indeed, we need to- and we also want it on our terms. Well, boo hoo. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/35 "2012-01-28T16:46:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Lets see. In a time before fiat currency, [who](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history#History_and_background) protected their goods from overseas competition through tariffs. Or who tried to do something similar across its [trading bloc](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Preference) You’re not answering my question. Are you seriously suggesting that EVERYONE who prospers does so by manipulating their currency and violating intellectual property rights? BTW, protectionism is not the same thing as currency manipulation. Nor is the establishment of a trading bloc. I think we both know that. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/36 "2012-01-28T16:48:46Z")
**AK84** , [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_intervention#Chinese_Yuan) is what currency manipulation is. Again, do you seriously want to argue that the only people who prosper are the ones who resort to this tactic? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/37 "2012-01-28T16:51:32Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I can never understand where we get off thinking we should have a say in China’s economic policy. They are free to run their economy, and we are free to trade or not trade with them as we see fit. If China wants to ignore and violate intellectual property rights, then I feel perfectly justified in denouncing this practice as deplorable. I feel similarly about currency manipulation, albeit to a lesser degree. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/38 "2012-01-28T17:14:04Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes they can be. China has had a world class military for near half a century, a military which sent the US (at the height of its power) running from N Korea, the Indians out of NEFA and gave the Vietnamese a good thrashing. I think “world class” is a bit of hyperbole. The Chinese military in general, has put emphasis on fielding large numbers rather than more highly trained and competent Western-style forces. For example, in Korea, it wasn’t the excellent Chinese tactics equipment and training that prevailed at the Chosin Reservoir, but rather huge numbers of infantry attacking strung-out UN forces in the dead of winter. Even when the UN forces weren’t strung out, they were still attacked by vastly numerically superior Chinese forces. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/39 "2012-02-02T13:34:12Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > But I really believe that their government is a massively destructive one, and its economic success scares me in many ways. I was scared of this, too, until I heard economic historian Niall Ferguson talking about the rise of Western Civilization and why China is rising now. He listed a number of “Killer Aps,” including democracy, capitalism, and the Protestant work ethic. And as Western Civilization is waning, China is rising because they’re picking up on the same things we did. Including business and personal ethics. Their economy is rising because their business men are becoming trustworthy, and less likely to put poisonous substances in baby-formula. And that is being fueled by a rise in Christianity. They still have a long way to go, as they still have a big problem with tainted products, and an oppressive government, but it’s changing. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/40 "2012-02-02T14:03:24Z")
I point to [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1728/who-invented-white-out) in which He said > [@TPM](#): > > In a war between the U.S. and Canada, Mexico would take Mexico’s side–that is, look to its own interests. In other words, it doesn’t matter as much if China prospers or fails, only that the US prospers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830.md?page=3)