# Do you want China to prosper or fail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830 "2012-01-27T04:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/41 "2012-02-02T20:12:43Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > I was scared of this, too, until I heard economic historian Niall Ferguson talking about the rise of Western Civilization and why China is rising now. He listed a number of “Killer Aps,” including democracy, capitalism, and the Protestant work ethic. And as Western Civilization is waning, China is rising because they’re picking up on the same things we did. Including business and personal ethics. Their economy is rising because their business men are becoming trustworthy, and less likely to put poisonous substances in baby-formula. And that is being fueled by a rise in Christianity. They still have a long way to go, as they still have a big problem with tainted products, and an oppressive government, but it’s changing. What’s the Christianity influence you’re talking about? My 20+ years in China didn’t uncover this ever. I’m a preacher’s kid and never ever saw anything that remotely suggested Christianity was influencing Chinese businessmen. I do a agree that a percentage of businessmen are getting more trustworthy because they realize the long term benefits. There is still a big majority that are in it for a quick buck and act that way. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/42 "2012-02-02T20:29:18Z")
I think AK84 has mischaracterized or misunderstood my hopes for China. I don’t believe there is a right or a wrong economic/political model, or that China needs to do things the way that the west has done them. If they are going to have a one party state forever, then so be it. I just want a lot of the human rights abuses to end. I want citizens of China to be freely able to have access to information, and freedom of speech, and to be issued a passport so that they can leave their country whenever they want. If China wants to retain some communist control over their economy, and it is successful, then that’s fine with me. The difference between that and a regulated capitalistic economy is not so great and they each have their benefits and flaws. So don’t get me wrong. I am not some American ethnocentrist who wants everyone in the world to do things the way we do. In fact, I hope that people will find ways to do things better than the way we do, because we have severely fucked up here and there. I just don’t want China to have supreme economic control AND continue to be able to abuse human rights, suppress free speech, impose state media and internet censorship, etc. Because that is bad for the people. Not because it’s “the wrong model” as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/43 "2012-02-02T21:29:11Z")
Same crazy levels of butthurt here. I have to agree with the OP, I definitely want China to prosper because I want the _whole world_ to prosper. But I don’t want an oppressive regime to prosper. Inasmuch as these are linked, I’d surely side with my wish that they prosper over my wish that they liberalize their social and political life, but if we’re just discussing it, why on Earth would it be American exceptionalism to say, “Hey, I don’t think their government is all that”? I wish America _also_ would liberalize more on social issues. The problem I have with economic progress that isn’t linked to social progress is it has this issue with corruption and a descent into fascism, in my opinion. Part of a vibrant economy is autonomy. You can have growth without it, though, as history has easily demonstrated. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/44 "2012-02-02T21:38:13Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > and to be issued a passport so that they can leave their country whenever they want. Cites for this? What makes you think that getting a passport these days (and frankly any time in at least the past decade) is a challenge? The passport itself is pretty easy - fill out a form, provide some documents proving who you are, two photos and whatever the modest fee is. The challenge is trying to get foreign visas to somewhere like the US. Which, of course, is something controlled by the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/45 "2012-02-03T01:06:25Z")
The faster it gets richer, the earlier China’s regime is going to fall. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/46 "2012-02-03T01:08:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The faster it gets richer, the earlier China’s regime is going to fall. That does seem to be what’s shaping up in Russia right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/47 "2012-02-03T01:22:28Z")
In Russia, regime changes YOU! ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/48 "2012-02-03T06:14:25Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Cites for this? What makes you think that getting a passport these days (and frankly any time in at least the past decade) is a challenge? The passport itself is pretty easy - fill out a form, provide some documents proving who you are, two photos and whatever the modest fee is. I think he is talking 'bout exit visas ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/49 "2012-02-03T07:07:23Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I think he is talking 'bout exit visas [Which China does not seem to have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_(document)#Exit_visas). [QUOTE=drewtwo99] I think AK84 has mischaracterized or misunderstood my hopes for China [/QUOTE] I fear I have understood you perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/50 "2012-02-03T15:22:07Z")
So does everyone think it would have been a good thing for the American “regime” to collapse in 1859? China’s government will evolve or change as the times change. Of course the Chinese deserve to prosper, and if they do, the politics will keep up one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/51 "2012-02-03T15:51:35Z")
I have little respect for China, and don’t really care what becomes of them. I’m appalled at the way they are treating Tibet and the Tibetans, but I stop short of wishing ill-will on them. I just wish they were more intelligent than they think they are. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/52 "2012-02-03T15:57:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So does everyone think it would have been a good thing for the American “regime” to collapse in 1859? There was this whole civil war thing you know. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/53 "2012-02-03T20:45:14Z")
Prosper in all ways big-time. Enough of a Unipolar world. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/54 "2012-02-03T20:59:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > [Which China does not seem to have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_(document)#Exit_visas). > I fear I have understood you perfectly. So what exactly have you understood about my position? Go ahead and summarize what you believe I believe so that I can respond to you appropriately. Just so you know, not that this is really all that relevant to my thread, but my boyfriend is ethnic chinese, speaks Cantonese, and his parents and grandparents are from China and still have family there. He and his family know a fair amount about China, and he does not hold them in very high regard. For example, the hotels they stayed at warned them about things they could and could not do online while they were there visiting a few months ago. A close friend of his who works in Hong Kong talks about how he has to circumvent censorship technology to do the same things online that we can do here in the states and that other countries in the world can do and take for granted. His friend explained how mainland Chinese citizens have a VERY difficult time getting access to Hong Kong, even though it’s part of the same country. I may not have all the facts when it comes to what is or isn’t allowed as far as citizens being allowed to leave and enter China freely, but from people who live and work there, they reported to me that it’s not very easy for everyone. Anyhow, the reason I started this thread in the first place was to learn more about China, their economic and political system and policies, and to get various different opinions. Rather than just spewing things like what I quoted above, why don’t you actually contribute to the thread by politely pointing out my factual errors, unsubstantiated beliefs/fears, and disagree with the opinions that you feel are unfair or unwarranted. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/55 "2012-02-04T05:29:56Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I think he is talking 'bout exit visas You don’t need an exit visa. Chinese citizens require a valid passport with a valid visa and matching plane ticket. Getting a valid visa can or cannot be challenging but that’s up to foreign countries such as the US and has nothing to do with the Chinese government. You can join a tour and pretty much guaranteed to get a visa. I’m stll not understanding where the perceived challenge is? For example, the biggest issue of getting a visa to the US is the US government. Nothing directly with a Chinese citizen personally nor the Chinese government. I’ve spent some time in the US consulate in Shanghai witnessing the arbitrary way Chinese citizens applying for US visas have to go through. Frankly, listening to a Chinese guy trying to get his student visa and nervously flubbing some English and having the consular office close the interview after 30 seconds was frankly sickening. Again, the hurdle is satisfying the US government requirements and the US civil servant that may be having a bad hair day. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/56 "2012-02-06T00:13:06Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > I have little respect for China, and don’t really care what becomes of them. I’m appalled at the way they are treating Tibet and the Tibetans, but I stop short of wishing ill-will on them. I just wish they were more intelligent than they think they are. OTOH, if the Dalai Lama had stayed in power in Tibet, Tibet would basically be a Buddhist Saudi Arabia without the oil money and the Dalai Lama would be a reactionary feudal monarch instead of the enlightened liberal he is today. ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/57 "2012-02-06T02:19:25Z")
Whatever the outcome is for China, it will doubtless find a path that is its own, and not like that of any other country or culture. If it works its way out of Communism, it will evolve into some form of government that reflects Chinese culture and traditions. I don’t expect it to necessarily evolve into a Western style democracy. I do think that it will become a stronger economy and that economics will tend to shape what government evolves, more than any other factor besides the historic ones. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/58 "2012-02-06T03:07:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > OTOH, if the Dalai Lama had stayed in power in Tibet, Tibet would basically be a Buddhist Saudi Arabia without the oil money and the Dalai Lama would be a reactionary feudal monarch instead of the enlightened liberal he is today. Qin, do you have a cite for this? The situation in Tibet circa 1940’s had little in common with Saudi Arabia. Bonus points if you can cite something that is not pure Chinese propaganda. It’s pretty well known by anyone that looks at it, that the Dalai Lama had embarked on modernizing Tibet. He was not a feudal monarch. More accurately the Dalai Lama was the spirtual and temporal ruler of Tibet. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/59 "2012-02-07T18:47:40Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > [QUOTE=ch4rl3s] > I was scared of this, too, until I heard economic historian Niall Ferguson talking about the rise of Western Civilization and why China is rising now. He listed a number of “Killer Aps,” including democracy, capitalism, and the Protestant work ethic. And as Western Civilization is waning, China is rising because they’re picking up on the same things we did. Including business and personal ethics. Their economy is rising because their business men are becoming trustworthy, and less likely to put poisonous substances in baby-formula. And that is being fueled by a rise in Christianity. They still have a long way to go, as they still have a big problem with tainted products, and an oppressive government, but it’s changing. What’s the Christianity influence you’re talking about? My 20+ years in China didn’t uncover this ever. I’m a preacher’s kid and never ever saw anything that remotely suggested Christianity was influencing Chinese businessmen. I do a agree that a percentage of businessmen are getting more trustworthy because they realize the long term benefits. There is still a big majority that are in it for a quick buck and act that way. [/QUOTE] When and where were your 20+ years in China? I ask because it would be data to add to the program i saw where Niall Ferguson said Christianity was on the rise. He talked to a some business owners in the program who said they were Christians, and their business ethics were based on it. I didn’t look into it myself. I assumed he did. And I was passing along that information. Specifically, it was from “Civilization: The West and the Rest.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/60 "2012-02-07T20:24:34Z")
> [@gunnergoz](#): > > Whatever the outcome is for China, it will doubtless find a path that is its own, and not like that of any other country or culture. Nah. They already **tried** that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830.md?page=4)