# Do you want China to prosper or fail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830 "2012-01-27T04:53:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/61 "2012-02-07T20:44:50Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > I have little respect for China, and don’t really care what becomes of them. I’m appalled at the way they are treating Tibet and the Tibetans Sure, it is not like the US has pressured any neighbouring (or far away) sovereign states recently. The Dutch sure did, [only fifty years ago.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution). It is rather remarkable that a world power like China dominates so few neighbouring states. Tibet, Taiwan, that is it. ---
**Author:** ![simple\_homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@simple\_homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simple_homer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/62 "2012-02-07T22:16:34Z")
> [@ch4rl3s](#): > > When and where were your 20+ years in China? I ask because it would be data to add to the program i saw where Niall Ferguson said Christianity was on the rise. He talked to a some business owners in the program who said they were Christians, and their business ethics were based on it. I didn’t look into it myself. I assumed he did. And I was passing along that information. Specifically, it was from “Civilization: The West and the Rest.” I have been in China for the past few years, and I am not seeing any rise in Christianity. Not sure about the rise in business ethics, but my experience is that it seems about 50/50 as to whether a business is seeking to be ethical or to just make a quick buck any way possible. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/63 "2012-02-08T03:50:52Z")
I spent 3 years in the countryside, a couple of years in Taiwan, 5 years total in Hong Kong and 12 years in Shanghai. I travelled extensively for work and met with tons of companies (although most were MNCs or local subsidiaries). Seeing absolutely zero rise in Christianity since the mid 1980’s and never ever seen it obvious in business. I knew a few locals that were Christian. My wife’s grandparents were pretty devout but they passed away before my time. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/64 "2012-02-08T05:04:01Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Qin, do you have a cite for this? The situation in Tibet circa 1940’s had little in common with Saudi Arabia. Bonus points if you can cite something that is not pure Chinese propaganda. > > It’s pretty well known by anyone that looks at it, that the Dalai Lama had embarked on modernizing Tibet. He was not a feudal monarch. More accurately the Dalai Lama was the spirtual and temporal ruler of Tibet. Thanks for playing. I’m not approving incidentally of the massacres, murders, and other human rights violations committed by China and I respect the Dalai Lama But… [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Tibet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet) > [@](#): > > Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial estates worked by serfs. These estates were owned by two social groups: the rich secular landlords and the rich theocratic lamas. Even a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches.” Much of the wealth was accumulated “through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.” [128] > > Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [129] > [@](#): > > The Chinese quickly abolished slavery and serfdom in their traditional forms. They also claim to have reduced taxes, unemployment, and beggary, and to have started work projects. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries, and they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa. And I meant being like Saudi Arabia in the sense of being a theocratic monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/65 "2012-02-08T06:12:39Z")
Can’t say as I agree with those points and many other laid out in your Wiki link. \*This \*wiki article reasonably lays out the \*competing \*claims of the Tibetans and the Chinese. [Serfdom in Tibet controversy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Tibet_controversy) You might want to check out some books by some people that were actually there at the time. 1. Charles Bell, Tibet Past and Present. Free link here: [http://e-asia.uoregon.edu/node/1166](http://e-asia.uoregon.edu/node/1166) 2. Hugh Richardson with David Snellgrove. A Cultural History of Tibet. who were actually stationed in Lhasa during the 1900’s and had first hand knowledge. 3. Heinrich Harrier and 7 Years in Tibet is another source from someone that was actually there. 4. Robert Ford, Captured in Tibet. Radio operator working for the Tibetan government who was captured in Chamdo during the Chinese invasion and held as a prisoner for 5 years. If you actually read any of the above, I can point you to plenty more first person accounts in the late 1800’s and up until the Chinese invasion. I travelled fairly extensively in Tibet in the 1980s. Let’s just say that the Tibetans I spoke with (in Mandarin) certainly thought that the pre-1950 period was much preferrable to the post-1950 period. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/66 "2012-02-08T06:24:37Z")
Here is a link to more than enough free Tibetan books to last you for the next year: [http://e-asia.uoregon.edu/items?author=&title=tibet](http://e-asia.uoregon.edu/items?author=&title=tibet) ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/67 "2012-02-08T09:00:50Z")
Sad as it is, to me, Tibet and its people comprise no more than a speedbump in the road of human development. A countryside so vast and so barren, and yet so strategically significant in questions of mining and military location and especially hydroelectric power… Tibetan independence is impossible. Tibet cannot be Bhutan, waiting at the sidelines of human history; it is too large and too strategic. Even if every Han Chinese in Tibet were to board the Qinghai-Xizang Express tomorrow and flee the region, then whatever government the Tibetans created would instantly have to invite them back to manage the power and transportation infrastructure. Even if the Tibetans had enough native engineers to manage it themselves, then the Chinese would still move in with investment and money and start to finlandize the government. Even if the Tibetans took a firm stance on allowing no Red Chinese anywhere in the country or any of their money or anything, then Japan or India or the ASEAN Chaozhou would step in to fill the gap, and why would the Tibetans say no to them? Tibetan independence, in the sense that they would be beholden to no country, is simply impossible. In light of that, Chinese divestment in Tibet seems, from a Chinese perspective, to be useless. But Tibet is only a detail. I, at least, am cheering for the Chinese. As was said upthread, they have, in the past 60 years, administered the largest anti-poverty initiative in the history of the world. China’s history has been rocky and bloody, but I believe - yes, as an article of faith, after breathing their air and drinking their water - that they’ll come out of it alright. I am 25 years old. I have no memory of life before the end of the Cold War; I have no idea what it was like to do duck-and-cover drills or to have watched the Prague Spring or the Vietnam War or anything like that. I want China to prosper because a prosperous China will be a friendly one, I hope, and that means that this century might be a little more peaceful than the one came before it. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/68 "2012-02-08T09:09:19Z")
I want China to prosper. First and most important Chinese prosperity means that hundreds of millions of poor people will continue lift themselves out of poverty. This is one of biggest leaps in the history of human progress. Secondly the world economy is for the most part a positive-sum game and a more prosperous China means larger markets and a larger pool of scientists, engineers and innovators who will help accelerate technological progress in the same way that the US has over the last 150 years. Finally on balance I think a more proserous China will in the long run be more democratic and liberal though it won’t be a staight road. There could be some drawbacks to Chinese prosperity for other countries but not remotely enough to overcome the above three points. On balance a prosperous China is very good for the world. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/69 "2012-02-08T09:15:56Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > My boyfriend made a trip to China and had to be told by the tour guide to be careful what he said, did, and did online, lest he get in trouble with the police. You’d never get such a list of don’ts on a tour in America. Nope, you need to check the list two months _before_ going to America! ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/70 "2012-02-08T13:51:32Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#): > > I have been in China for the past few years, and I am not seeing any rise in Christianity. > > Not sure about the rise in business ethics, but my experience is that it seems about > 50/50 as to whether a business is seeking to be ethical or to just make a quick buck any way possible. > [@China\_Guy](#): > > I spent 3 years in the countryside, a couple of years in Taiwan, 5 years total in Hong Kong and 12 years in Shanghai. I travelled extensively for work and met with tons of companies (although most were MNCs or local subsidiaries). > > Seeing absolutely zero rise in Christianity since the mid 1980’s and never ever seen it obvious in business. I knew a few locals that were Christian. My wife’s grandparents were pretty devout but they passed away before my time. I wasn’t sure how to judge these personal experiences… (I didn’t know whether you dealt with the same people most of the time, or met new business owners consistantly. And I didn’t know if you ever knew what religion they were, or had been in a church in China.) So, I googled “is there a rise in christianity in china” and got a staggering yes from almost every source, including Frontline World, BBC News, the Guardian, Wikipedia, etc. Here’s one quote: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749) > [@](#): > > It is impossible to say how many Christians there are in China today, but no-one denies the numbers are exploding. > > The government says 25 million, 18 million Protestants and six million Catholics. Independent estimates all agree this is a vast underestimate. A conservative figure is 60 million. There are already more Chinese at church on a Sunday than in the whole of Europe. So, better than 1 in 17 people in China, more than in all of Europe, and according to other reports, some are still somewhat reluctant to announce it because the government crackdowns were still quite recent. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/71 "2012-02-08T15:13:51Z")
[hijack]Based on my experience, 1 in 17 cannot possibly be anywhere close to reality. According to [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan#Statistics_on_registered_religions_.282005.29), Taiwan has 3.9% protestant and catholics. [Hong Kong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Hong_Kong)pegged at 800k out of an official population of 7M (but likely higher). While this [mission](http://www.omf.org/omf/taiwan/resources/articles__1/taiwan_or_china)site claims working class Taiwanese are only 0.5% Christian. So, in two Chinese countries that have a long history of active missionary work, proactive International Christianity ties, Hong Kong’s case with colonial masters that were Christian, etc, it’s significantly less than the purported Chinese numbers. Ancedotal, yes. but with 1 in 17 mainland Chinese as Christian, you’d think that the Dopers who have been deeply involved students of China in country, would have a little more feel for it. Casual conversation often covered this subject (not least of which because I could then use one of my favorite Chinese puns. When someone asked what religion are you? I would answer sleep" (“你性什么教？我姓睡觉.") I also lived a 2 minute walk from one of Shanghai’s oldest and most active community church for 12 years. There were not thousands of worshippers packing in every Sunday. There were maybe hundreds. There are also special services held where you need to show foreign passport to get in. These are usually English language and usually Catholic so as to have the unbroken line back to the Vatican. As an aside, don’t fall for the “your donations will help smuggle bibles into China to reach the millions of Christians that don’t have bibles” scam. Not sure how active this is these days, but it was still a few years ago. That being dispite the fact that the largest bible publisher in the world is [Amity](http://www.mscottbrauer.com/amity-printing-company-worlds-largest-bible-producer/)Printing Company in Nanjing. I took my ex-missionary mother to visit there about 10 years ago. Keep in mind that there are probably a lot of different groups categorized as Christian, when in reality they would bear nothing more than a superficial resemblance to anything you might consider Christian. There’s a long history of that. Go back and look at the Taiping Rebellion – led by a Hakka Prophet named Hong Xiuquan, a Christian convert who had claimed that he was the brother of Jesus Christ. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/72 "2012-02-08T20:53:06Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > (not least of which because I could then use one of my favorite Chinese puns. When someone asked what religion are you? I would answer sleep" (“你性什么教？我姓睡觉.") I know it’s declasse to explain jokes, but the Chinese word for religion is ‘jiao,’ which is a homophone for the word for ‘sleep.’ So religions in Chinese are x-jiao; Buddhism is fojiao, Confucianism is ruijiao, some people have begun to refer to Chinese folk religion as shenjiao, Christianity is either jidujiao or tianzhujiao, and the like. ‘Sleep’ is shuijiao, written differently and with a different tone, but still sounding close enough. I want to be **China Guy** when I grow up. I think I have a very embryonic form of his experiences. Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/73 "2012-02-08T21:11:51Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > [hijack]Keep in mind that there are probably a lot of different groups categorized as Christian, when in reality they would bear nothing more than a superficial resemblance to anything you might consider Christian. There’s a long history of that. Go back and look at the Taiping Rebellion – led by a Hakka Prophet named Hong Xiuquan, a Christian convert who had claimed that he was the brother of Jesus Christ. Does that sect still exist in any form? (Serious question.) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/74 "2012-02-08T22:20:08Z")
I’d want to see them prosper AND for their particular form of repressive government to be replaced by something less malignant. Also, it would be a novelty if they were to discard some of their more disgusting predatory business/trade practices such as theft of copyrighted/trademarked/ patented things, less counterfeiting and piracy, it’s as if they are proud of how crooked and dishonest they can be. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/75 "2012-02-08T22:47:27Z")
My experience with Christianity in China is that it’s roughly akin to Buddhism in the US. Yes, you will find followers, and sure the scene is growing. You are a lot more likely to find them on college campuses and Bohemian coffee bars than business meetings. For some percent, it’s a part of their deepest held beliefs and they have a real understanding of the theology behind it. But for the majority, it’s more about a general worldview and community, and the actual beliefs are fairly flexible and undefined. A small percent are deeply committed to established Institutions, but most have a sort of pop-spiritual engagement, taking a sort of vague spirituality without a lot of attention to theology. Think of college students experimenting with Buddhism, and you’ll have a good impression. Young Chinese people are very new to the idea of religion, and I think there is a sort of spiritual yearning in these people who have been disengaged from both traditional religions and the Communism of their parents. For some, Christianity fills that yearning in the edgy, free, feel-good way that new and exotic religions your parents don’t “get” tend to have. All of the Christian sentiment I’ve heard has a sort of “group hug” aspect to it, with an emphasis on “God is behind me” and “All things are possible with God.” There isn’t a ton of worry about Jesus on the cross or attending church or the content of the Bible. China has always been content to pick and choose with religion, mixing superstition, theology and tradition without really worrying too much about the objective truth or the real depth of belief. FWIW, my student came to me with every imaginable secret- abortions, beatings, murder, suicide, depression, confusion…every deep heavy thing a college kid might have to deal with, but not one ever came to me with religious concerns or anything about Christianity. Now and then one would say a vaguely Christian platitude, but nobody ever shared religious feelings with me despite the fact that I’m sure most would assume I’d be a sympathetic audience. So I wouldn’t make too much of the “rise of Christianity in China” as a sign that they are becoming westernized any more than you would assume the rise of Buddhism means the US is becomng more Eastern in thought. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/76 "2012-02-09T01:09:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’d want to see them prosper AND for their particular form of repressive government to be replaced by something less malignant. > > Also, it would be a novelty if they were to discard some of their more disgusting predatory business/trade practices such as theft of copyrighted/trademarked/ patented things, less counterfeiting and piracy, it’s as if they are proud of how crooked and dishonest they can be. Is it not more that they just don’t see it the same way we do? Especially in the absence of a global media corporate environment. I imagine that would change as these things develop. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/77 "2012-02-09T01:47:36Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So I wouldn’t make too much of the “rise of Christianity in China” as a sign that they are becoming westernized any more than you would assume the rise of Buddhism means the US is becomng more Eastern in thought. You’d think the rise of such a foreign doctrine as **Communism** in China would have been a sign of its Westernization if anything would. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/78 "2012-02-09T03:21:25Z")
My mother in law was converted to become a born again Christian in China when she was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. Tried to pray away the blood sugar. 😉 Didn’t work. That phase lasted about a year and consisted of 1. getting her daughter (my wife) to buy an expensive and tacky gold crucifix to sport around her neck 2. pray for material goods and/or health 3. That was it Disillusionment set in after maybe a year and that was that. Her parents, my wife’s grandparents, were very devout Catholics. They worshipped in secret during the 50’s and then of course during the cultural revolution. None of the kids or grandkids have any real understanding of Christianity. Actually, more accurately, the youngest grandchild went to the big Catholic Cathedral in Shanghai on holidays with the grandfather in the early 1980s when things loosened up. She was too young to really understand anything or have insights to her Grandfather’s faith. ---
**Author:** ![simple\_homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@simple\_homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simple_homer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/79 "2012-02-09T03:59:15Z")
“Do you want China to prosper or fail?” I would much rather deal with a happy and prospering China than with an angry and failing China. I am currently in China, and I just cannot see how anyone would benefit if China somehow fails. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830/80 "2012-02-09T04:33:59Z")
> [@simple\_homer](#): > > I am currently in China, and I just cannot see how anyone would benefit > if China somehow fails. India, perhaps? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-china-to-prosper-or-fail/610830.md?page=5)