# Do you want fries with that? (McDonald's employee beats customers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 15, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693 "2011-10-15T00:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/221 "2011-10-18T14:45:22Z")
This is a tough one. It’s hard to defend someone bashing two women with a pole, but they were unequivocably trying to get at him and hurt him. Take into account that the guy had done some time, and thus had some exposure to people trying to kill each other on a daily basis. If I was on the jury, I would have a very hard time voting to convict. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/222 "2011-10-18T14:58:54Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Thinking everyone behaved inappropriately doesn’t mean you think everyone involved behaved _equally_ inappropriately, and once you’ve weighted the inappropriateness, you’ve in essence chosen a side whether you express it in those terms or not. I have no interest in weighting the inappropriateness (?) and don’t feel that this is a useful exercise. The women shouldn’t have attacked him. He should have stopped beating them once they were incapacitated. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not on their side or his side. I think they were all assholes and I’m glad none of them lives in my neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/223 "2011-10-18T15:05:38Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I have no interest in weighting the inappropriateness (?) and don’t feel that this is a useful exercise. The women shouldn’t have attacked him. He should have stopped beating them once they were incapacitated. If they keep getting up, are they incapacitated? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/224 "2011-10-18T15:25:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I used a weapon in a fight once. It was a tennis racket, and I split the guy’s scalp open and sent him to the ER. Then he took it away from me and used it on me. I ended up with more than 60 stitches. I believe that’s “game”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/225 "2011-10-18T15:34:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I believe that’s “game”. But not “love”. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/226 "2011-10-18T15:43:51Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > It kind of wigs me out that what I’m hearing from a lot of you guys is “When attacked in any way, no matter how minor or severe, it is acceptable and even expected to go completely out of your mind with rage/panic and use force on the attacker until he/she is dead, even if other options such as walking away and/or stopping short of death were available.” You’ve not been assaulted, have you? When someone comes at me, I have no idea how far they’re willing to go–none at all. They could just be venting, or they could be willing to put a knife in me. If I’m attacked, I’ll defend myself full-out, especially when the attacker is as wigged-out as the women in this video. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/227 "2011-10-18T15:45:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If they keep getting up, are they incapacitated? I didn’t see anyone getting up in that video. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/228 "2011-10-18T15:46:57Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I didn’t see anyone getting up in that video. Did he? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/229 "2011-10-18T15:47:11Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > You’ve not been assaulted, have you? Actually, yes I have. Do you require full details in order to consider my opinions worthwhile? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/230 "2011-10-18T16:05:04Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > See, this is what I don’t get. Why do you need to choose a side here? I think everyone involved behaved inappropriately. I don’t think you’ll get a lot of resistance to the idea that more violence was meted out than was strictly necessary. That said, it’s hard to look at the situation outside of the context of someone defending themselves against an unprovoked violent attack by two people. Yeah, the guy grabbed whatever happened to be at hand to defend himself. That’s reasonable. You characterize anyone expressing this opinion as “internet tough guy,” which is a bit ironic because the alternative is to say that he had some sort of obligation to play fair and take the inevitable licks that are going to come from trying to fend off an attack by two people using his hands alone. _That_ is a tough guy attitude. No doubt his “beat 'em till they stop moving” approach was more appropriate for prison yard defense, but this was ~20 seconds of instinctive reaction to an attack. It is easier to forgive an inappropriate reaction than an inappropriate action. A corrections spokesperson [said](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/52735776-79/mcintosh-women-counter-group.html.csp) Mr. McIntosh was "adjusting to supervision very well.” Everyone involved in this reacted badly to some stimulus and suffered for it. He comes across a bit more sympathetically because he was reacting to a threat to his personal safety. They, on the other hand, reacted to the stimulus of the sort that anyone might expect in the course of an ordinary commercial transaction by initiating violence. In all probability, everyone participating in this thread could confidently manage to do exactly the right thing when a cashier indicated that they’d have to verify a high-denomination bill. Managing to do exactly the right thing when defending against a two-pronged assault is not nearly as easy. > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I didn’t see anyone getting up in that video. According to people at the scene, he kept telling them to stay down, and swung each time they tried to get up. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/231 "2011-10-18T16:19:21Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > According to people at the scene, he kept telling them to stay down, and swung each time they tried to get up. Thanks, I’d missed that. My Internet Tough Guy commentary was mostly directed at all of the, “If _I_ were attacked I’d use as much force as necessary” blah blah blah. Yeah, OK. I have a lot more sympathy for the argument that you simply don’t know what you might do in that situation than for the idea that you’re bound to turn into an unstoppable rage machine or whatever. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you’ll get a lot of resistance to the idea that more violence was meted out than was strictly necessary. I feel like there has been a lot of resistance to that idea from several posters in this thread, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/232 "2011-10-18T16:22:39Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Thanks, I’d missed that. > > My Internet Tough Guy commentary was mostly directed at all of the, “If _I_ were attacked I’d use as much force as necessary” blah blah blah. Yeah, OK. I have a lot more sympathy for the argument that you simply don’t know what you might do in that situation than for the idea that you’re bound to turn into an unstoppable rage machine or whatever. > > I feel like there has been a lot of resistance to that idea from several posters in this thread, actually. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/233 "2011-10-18T16:27:01Z")
Way I’d put it would be this: the two women get no sympathy for their actions, because there is no excuse and no toleration for attacking an employee just doing his job. OTOH, the employee gets lots of sympathy, because clearly it is his right to defend himself from being attacked while doing his job. The only contentious issue is whether he went too far. On that, there can be some doubt because we only have the video to go by. My uninformed view is that he did, but I admit, I don’t have all the facts. That’s up to the jury. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/234 "2011-10-18T18:44:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Way I’d put it would be this: the two women get no sympathy for their actions, because there is no excuse and no toleration for attacking an employee just doing his job. > > OTOH, the employee gets lots of sympathy, because clearly it is his right to defend himself from being attacked while doing his job. > > The only contentious issue is whether he went too far. On that, there can be some doubt because we only have the video to go by. My uninformed view is that he did, but I admit, I don’t have all the facts. That’s up to the jury. I’d say that’s a fair recap. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/235 "2011-10-18T19:45:59Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Thanks, I’d missed that. > > My Internet Tough Guy commentary was mostly directed at all of the, “If _I_ were attacked I’d use as much force as necessary” blah blah blah. Yeah, OK. I have a lot more sympathy for the argument that you simply don’t know what you might do in that situation than for the idea that you’re bound to turn into an unstoppable rage machine or whatever. > > I feel like there has been a lot of resistance to that idea from several posters in this thread, actually. I have been attacked, more than once, and in retrospect, I didn’t use enough force. I suspect that is one lesson Rayon learned in prison. And it’s not a rage machine, it’s a fear machine. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/236 "2011-10-18T20:14:05Z")
Rage machine, fear machine, whatever. Substitute the machine of your choice in my preceding comment. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/237 "2011-10-18T20:33:01Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > > > According to people at the scene, he kept telling them to stay down, and swung each time they tried to get up. > > Thanks, I’d missed that. Yeah, me too. A buddy of mine managed to knock down someone attacking him on the Washington, DC Metro. The attacker lay there wailing and crying – along with other passengers hollering that the attacker had had enough – until my buddy backed off. Then the attacker got to his feet and resumed the attack. Much later I had the chance to ask a policeman about what my buddy should have done. The policeman said he should have told the attacker very loudly – so the other passengers could hear – “Stay down! Stay down!” Presumably, if the attacker tried to get up my buddy could’ve walloped the attacker again with at least a few witnesses that he’d tried to end his own attempts at violent defense. Shouting “Stay down!” is clearly not something that would occur to anyone other than a policeman. ETA: To a policeman or the guy behind the counter if, in fact, he did say that as Larry Mudd states. > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > > > I don’t think you’ll get a lot of resistance to the idea that more violence was meted out than was strictly necessary. > > I feel like there has been a lot of resistance to that idea from several posters in this thread, actually. Sadly, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/238 "2011-10-18T20:44:58Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > Shouting “Stay down!” is clearly not something that would occur to anyone other than a policeman. > . Apparently it occured to Mr McDonalds man. And it makes perfect sense. He spent 10 years in prison. You gotta wonder how many times he saw an inmate vs guard beatdown where thats exactly how a fight gets handled. You stay down or you get wacked again (and thats how the good guys do it!). Between that conditioning and the prison reality of no half measures, particularly when you are cornered, in a dangerous setting, its two on one, and its a suprise attack its no damn wonder Rayon acted the way he did. Heck, in hindsight, IMO he acted exactly like you’d expect him to act. Oh and you really should have chosen the username Seancanary. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/239 "2011-10-18T20:58:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Apparently it occured to Mr McDonalds man. I think we cross posted, me with my ETA and you with your response. In any event, I agree with you. > [@billfish678](#): > > Heck, in hindsight, IMO he acted exactly like you’d expect him to act. Deep down in my heart of hearts I … have to say I agree with you. > [@billfish678](#): > > Oh and you really should have chosen the username Seancanary. Guards! GUARDS!! Take this poster out and hang him from the highest fortn’ght!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693/240 "2011-10-19T17:17:35Z")
Poor guy was in court yesterday and still hasn’t raised bail. His next court date is December 2. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-fries-with-that-mcdonalds-employee-beats-customers/599693.md?page=13)