# Do you want Kerry to inherit this mess? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469 "2004-05-16T20:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![quiltguy154](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ad7895/32.png) [@quiltguy154](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy154)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/1 "2004-05-16T20:31:54Z")
As much as I’d like to see GWB out of office, supplanted by Kerry, I don’t know that I’d be real happy about it. Ol’ George has gotten us into a fine mess, that looks for all the world insoluble. Why should Kerry be saddled with this albatross, outside of the fact that he ostensibly wishes to have it, and have to fight tooth and nail to try and clean it up. Wouldn’t this unite the Pubbies into doing all they can to insure his failure? Four years of sniping, conservative media and finger pointing, a la “Why haven’t you done anything to make it better, Mr. Democrat.” If GWB is voted out, he’ll just look like a failed president, which he is already in some folks eyes. Should Kerry assume command and NOT perform miracles, woe betide him. Are there too many big guns out there, already cocked to insure nothing of consequence comes out of his presidency? Do you believe Kerry can do the job, do it well, and garner a large share of the accolades should he succeed? As a lifelong Democrat, I can’t believe I actually feel this way. I realize I’m hedging my bet, but I want Kerry to knock everybody’s socks off. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/2 "2004-05-16T20:35:34Z")
Well, I want him to be President, so yes, I want him to inherit this mess. I think he’s more likely to do something positive with it than the guy who started it. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/3 "2004-05-16T20:39:24Z")
Actually, now that the economy is the rebound and will continue that way for a few years, at least, the question is: Should Kerry potentiallly get credit for the majority of the Bush boom? I have a feeling that both questions will prove to be moot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/4 "2004-05-16T20:43:14Z")
A bit soon to call it a boom, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/5 "2004-05-16T20:58:25Z")
I assume you speak not only of the mess internationally (especially Iraq), but also in our fiscal situation. From surplusses out as far as the eye could see to big structural deficits out as far as the eye can see. Yeah, I don’t envy Kerry! But, let’s face it, the first thing one must do when one is stuck in a hole is at least stop digging. That alone would be an improvement. > [@Plan B](#): > > Should Kerry potentiallly get credit for the majority of the Bush boom? The economy goes in cycles. Just as Bush can’t be blamed for causing the recession, I don’t think he deserves that much credit for the recovery. And, to the extent that he does, he has probably created the most expensive, least-bang-for-the-buck economic stimulus in the history of the world! Basically, he his tax cuts alone have mortgaged us at the expense of a few trillion dollars (over a period of 10-12 years) to buy some job growth that will still be hard-pressed to get him back to the point where job numbers were at the start of his administration. [And, of course, it is not even clear to what extent the economy is responding to the tax cuts, the binge in spending esp. on defense, or just plain cycles.] ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/6 "2004-05-16T21:39:29Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > But, let’s face it, the first thing one must do when one is stuck in a hole is at least stop digging. Exactly. I think Jon Stewart said it best, several nights ago, when he said: _(paraphrased by me)_ “I feel like, if the country was a car- and Bush was driving- and he drove us into a pond… I don’t think he should be the one to drive us back out.” I’m sure I butchered the quote, but you get the general idea. But to remove any ambiguity: I _really_ want Kerry to inherit this mess, because I think he will (at the very least) be able to stop digging the hole that **jshore** mentioned. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/7 "2004-05-16T22:59:39Z")
> [@quiltguy154](#): > > Wouldn’t this unite the Pubbies into doing all they can to insure his failure? Four years of sniping, conservative media and finger pointing, a la “Why haven’t you done anything to make it better, Mr. Democrat.” If this were an ordinary mess, you’d be right. But, whether the mess is the Iraq war, or the antiterrorism effort, or the economy, it’s still inescapably a Republican mess. The RW sniping would be muted, at best. The mess(es) are going to be there either way. Certainly I’d prefer to have them under the management of somebody who might have some ability to deal with them rather than somebody who has proven he does not. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/8 "2004-05-16T23:07:11Z")
I’ll add my “me, too!” vote. I almost wish that Dubya would be re-elected to clean up the mess he’s created in both our foreign and domestic policy. The problem is, he won’t. He won’t even acknowledge that there’s a problem. :rolleyes: So while Kerry (or whoever wins against Dubya in November) won’t have an easy time putting things right, at least they acknowledge a problem and will take steps to correct it. I especially do not envy anyone trying to put our domestic economy in order. With the record high oil prices, I’m guessing that our recovering economy will stall again and possibly give us another (near) recession. I’m very curious about the idea of Dubya and company being handed indictments for their malfeasance in office. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/9 "2004-05-17T00:05:58Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > I’ll add my “me, too!” vote. > > I almost wish that Dubya would be re-elected to clean up the mess he’s created in both our foreign and domestic policy. The problem is, he won’t. He won’t even acknowledge that there’s a problem. :rolleyes: > > So while Kerry (or whoever wins against Dubya in November) won’t have an easy time putting things right, at least they acknowledge a problem and will take steps to correct it. I especially do not envy anyone trying to put our domestic economy in order. With the record high oil prices, I’m guessing that our recovering economy will stall again and possibly give us another (near) recession. > > I’m very curious about the idea of Dubya and company being handed indictments for their malfeasance in office. “Or whoever wins against Dubya in Novemeber” are you daft? There is only two outcomes possible barring death of candidates this November, 1) Kerry wins, 2) Bush wins. If Kerry doesn’t win, “someone else” isn’t going to beat President Bush. Furthermore, if you knew anything remotely about Constitutional law you would know that an executive cannot be charged for doing “badly” in the eyes of his constituents. That is why we have elections every four years, to deal with policies we disagree with. Unless he clearly violates a _law_ or part of the constitution, he has committed no crime and no idictments can be handed down. And no, an unbalanced budget is not against the law, that amendment never passed. Furthermore, we never had “surpluses as far as the eye could see” with Clinton, we had miniscule surpluses as a % of the budget. I’m not saying they weren’t there, but they weren’t “surpluses as far as the eye could see.” Also, no President short of a divine one could have dealt with the security concerns that WOULD HAVE arised because of 9/11 without going into deficit. Not Kerry, not Gore, not anyone. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/10 "2004-05-17T00:38:07Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Furthermore, we never had “surpluses as far as the eye could see” with Clinton, we had miniscule surpluses as a % of the budget. I’m not saying they weren’t there, but they weren’t “surpluses as far as the eye could see.” Also, no President short of a divine one could have dealt with the security concerns that WOULD HAVE arised because of 9/11 without going into deficit. Not Kerry, not Gore, not anyone. The actual surplusses weren’t that miniscule for the budget as a whole (i.e., including social security, which has a surplusses that tend to offset deficits in the rest of the budget). In the 2000 (?), the surplus even slightly exceeded the social security surplus which means the rest of the budget was in surplus. And, you might recall that the surpluses as far as the eye could see that I talked about were in fact Bush’s original reason for the tax cuts. And, Greenspan endorsed these tax cuts in part because he expressed concern about us paying back the national debt too quickly. Here is a statement from Pete Domenici from January 2001 discussing the “problem” of the surpluses: > [@](#): > > As Chairman Greenspan warns us last week – large deficits can be bad, and large surpluses can also be bad. I am also told that the last time this country had a similar blessing – President Benjamin Harrison stated in his inaugural address that “while a treasury surplus is not the greatest evil, it is a serious evil.” > > Now, it seems that I will spend the last two years on this committee, working to once again balance the budget. Hard as this is for maybe all of us to understand – after working so hard to eliminate deficits – I agree, balance also means that large surpluses must not be allowed. Surpluses may not be the greatest evil we face, but they can be a challenge. > > How we go about establishing a glide path to balance – how we go about allocating this expected surplus between the real needs of the federal government, while being very, very careful about not funding the unlimited " wants" of a government is the issue before us today. > > And how we balance those spending wants while still returning some portion of this surplus to the american taxpayer, is obviously the first job of this committee as we prepare a budget blue print for the coming Congress and beyond. > > In truth, the challenge before this committee – indeed the challenge before the new Administration and this new Congress – of reaching balance in a world of surpluses may be more difficult than it was in a world of deficits. And, [here](http://www.senate.gov/~budget/republican/about/hearing2001/PVD322.htm) is Domenici again a couple months later: > [@](#): > > Like President Cleveland, President Bush sees large budget surpluses as a reason to cut taxes. The President’s budget will also use the surpluses to pay down $2 trillion in debt over the next 10 years. > > Debt reduction is a wonderful thing, but retiring too much debt too fast would require the payment of “penalty premiums.” Chairman Greenspan recently noted that getting many bondholders, particularly foreign bondholders, to discard their Treasuries prior to maturity would be – in his words – “extraordinarily expensive and obviously undesirable.” > > In fact, a large portion of the penalty premiums would go to foreign bondholders, who own 42% of the privately-held debt – and this percentage is growing. As bad as it would be to use the surpluses to pay down debt too quickly, another scenario is even worse: letting the government use the surpluses to accumulate private assets. Make no mistake: I strongly oppose government accumulation of private assets. > > This is one of the reasons I support President Bush’s tax plan. If taxes are not cut, the money will either be spent or used to accumulate assets. Taxes need to be cut and the sooner the better. Now, what is true is that some people realized at the time that these surplusses were probably exaggerated. See, for example, [here](http://www.cbpp.org/2-6-01bud.htm). Yet, this cannot account for the huge change that has occurred in the future predictions. ([Here](http://www.cbpp.org/1-6-03bud.htm) is a study looking at how the budget picture shifted between 2001 and 2003.) As for security issues, sure part of the short term budget deficits are due to that (and part are due to the economic downturn of course). But, this isn’t the largest amount…particularly for the long term budget predictions. And, of course, some of us would argue that some of this money…like that being spent in Iraq…was also squandered. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/11 "2004-05-17T00:43:17Z")
I suggest the primary deciding factor as to how Kerry would fare as president depends on whether or not the Democrats take any seats in Congress. I believe they only need two more to control the Senate, but it’s unlikely that they’ll take the House unless the Democrats get their people downright activist about voting the party line between now and November. I think they need 12 seats there. I haven’t heard much hue and cry about unseating the Republicans from Congress so my guess is it’s underneath the average voter’s radar. It could already be too late to rally their voters by casting serious blame on their rivals to do any good. The Dems are such pussies when it comes to taking the attack posture. Revenge of the Democrats would be interesting theater for a while, but I’d guess it wouldn’t necessarily have a long run. I’m not sure the party would still be as united after the elation of a big victory has worn off, unless Kerry can bring them together effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/12 "2004-05-17T00:43:42Z")
I suggest the primary deciding factor as to how Kerry would fare as president depends on whether or not the Democrats take any seats in Congress. I believe they only need two more to control the Senate, but it’s unlikely that they’ll take the House unless the Democrats get their people downright activist about voting the party line between now and November. I think they need 12 seats there. I haven’t heard much hue and cry about unseating the Republicans from Congress so my guess is it’s underneath the average voter’s radar. It could already be too late to rally their voters by casting serious blame on their rivals to do any good. The Dems are such pussies when it comes to taking the attack posture. ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/13 "2004-05-17T00:47:23Z")
I suggest the primary deciding factor as to how Kerry would fare as president depends on whether or not the Democrats take any seats in Congress. I believe they only need two more to control the Senate, but it’s unlikely that they’ll take the House unless the Democrats get their people downright activist about voting the party line between now and November. I think they need 12 seats there. I haven’t heard much hue and cry about unseating the Republicans from Congress so my guess is it’s underneath the average voter’s radar. It could already be too late to rally their voters by casting serious blame on their rivals to do any good. The Dems are such wimps when it comes to taking the attack posture. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/14 "2004-05-17T00:51:26Z")
Better to try and fail than not try at all… or stand by and watch things get worse. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/15 "2004-05-17T01:10:42Z")
I fervently hope that Kerry gets the chance to clean up the mess, not because I’m convinced he (or anyone else) can actually do it in a single term as president, but because if Bush is re-elected, we will be saying to the world that yes, the positions the US has taken are supported by the people. Yes, we believe that unilaterally attacking a sovereign nation (regardless of how brutal the dictator of said nation) is a good thing. Yes, we consider your (other nations’) position immaterial. We have this bright shiny military (which I wholeheartedly support, btw), and we’re going to use it, not for defense, but to do anything we want, because you can’t do anything to stop it. Yes, it’s perfectly acceptable to lie to other nations and one’s own people to achieve one’s goals (and I’m not just talking about Iraq). Yes, we are morally superior to the rest of the world, and this entitles us to do what we damn well please. Yes, we believe that any nation or individual who criticizes us must be anti-American, and that it is perfectly okay for us to do whatever we want to undercut the holder of such an anti-American viewpoint. Yes it is okay to hold not only foreign nationals, but Amercian citizens as well, not necessarily because we have any real reason to, but because our president has designated them as Enemy Combatants. etc. The upcoming election is the one chance we get to convince the world that We the People do _not_ support these positions. If we don’t, we deserve what we get (and I don’t think it will be pretty). ---
**Author:** ![Snag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Snag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snag)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/16 "2004-05-17T01:25:31Z")
Damn computer, it lags and lags, I decide to do a quick edit, and the next thing I know there are three versions of the same posting. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/17 "2004-05-17T01:30:06Z")
Quite possibly the current level of discontent within the GOP in congress and the senate, I can see a GOP controlled legislature working with Kerry to fix the various problems, both domestic and foreign. Heck, getting the deficit under control is almost certainly going to require tax increases, especially with the AMT hangin’ out there - if there’s a way to fix it while blaming the gol durned tax crazy democrats then I think they would go for it. Unless the campaign gets exceptionally vicious or Kerry is unwilling to work with GOP leadership I could see him getting a respectable honeymoon. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/18 "2004-05-17T05:31:56Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > I suggest the primary deciding factor as to how Kerry would fare as president depends on whether or not the Democrats take any seats in Congress. I believe they only need two more to control the Senate, but it’s unlikely that they’ll take the House unless the Democrats get their people downright activist about voting the party line between now and November. I think they need 12 seats there. > > I haven’t heard much hue and cry about unseating the Republicans from Congress so my guess is it’s underneath the average voter’s radar. It could already be too late to rally their voters by casting serious blame on their rivals to do any good. The Dems are such pussies when it comes to taking the attack posture. TEACH IT! it i s urgently time to nationalize the house and senate races. where is the democratic (gagmewithaspoon) contract with america? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/19 "2004-05-17T05:32:30Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > “Or whoever wins against Dubya in Novemeber” are you daft? There is only two outcomes possible barring death of candidates this November, 1) Kerry wins, 2) Bush wins. If Kerry doesn’t win, “someone else” isn’t going to beat President Bush. While Kerry is the presumptive Democratic candidate, the national convention is still a few months off, and a lot can happen between now and then. The same could be said for Dubya, too. His popularity is plummeting and a sudden revolt by the numerous Republicans who are disgusted by him would make for an interesting convention, too. It ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings. I would love it if a third party candidate would win the White House. I think the current two party arrangement is so out of touch with mainstream America it’s almost laughable. Unfortunately, I don’t see it happening soon, but one can always hope. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, if you knew anything remotely about Constitutional law you would know that an executive cannot be charged for doing “badly” in the eyes of his constituents. That is why we have elections every four years, to deal with policies we disagree with. Unless he clearly violates a _law_ or part of the constitution, he has committed no crime and no idictments can be handed down. > > And no, an unbalanced budget is not against the law, that amendment never passed. Agreed, but I never said he’d be tried for unpopularity in office. But there is the matter of lying about the reasons for going to war in Iraq and the current scandal regarding prisoners in Iraq isn’t going away any time soon, either. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, we never had “surpluses as far as the eye could see” with Clinton, we had miniscule surpluses as a % of the budget. I’m not saying they weren’t there, but they weren’t “surpluses as far as the eye could see.” Also, no President short of a divine one could have dealt with the security concerns that WOULD HAVE arised because of 9/11 without going into deficit. Not Kerry, not Gore, not anyone. I never mentioned anything about surpluses, but I was referring to the fact that record high oil prices could wipe out the current economic recovery, like rising oil prices in the late nineties helped start the economic downturn we’re coming out of. Like it our not, our economy is based largely on oil. High oil prices could kill the current recovery, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469/20 "2004-05-17T06:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > While Kerry is the presumptive Democratic candidate, the national convention is still a few months off, and a lot can happen between now and then. The same could be said for Dubya, too. His popularity is plummeting and a sudden revolt by the numerous Republicans who are disgusted by him would make for an interesting convention, too. It ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings. You’re sounding a bit out of touch yourself. Kerry has more than the required number of delegates. He’s clinched the nomination - conventions are just ceremonies. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-you-want-kerry-to-inherit-this-mess/245469.md?page=2)