# Docs/Interviews That Emphasize Degeneracy In Arts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570 "2020-04-25T21:27:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/61 "2020-04-27T18:56:46Z")
The Police and Van Halen released their first albums in the 70s šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/62 "2020-04-27T19:15:29Z")
> [@digs](#): > > \*My kids love to get me on my soapbox by asking why I was such a Beatles fan in the early 60ā€™s. And I explain how you had two or three AM stations playing the Top 40: ā€œImagine, kiddos, the SAME forty songs.ā€ And before the Beatles, it was schmaltz like HEY HEY PAULA, GO AWAY LITTLE GIRL, and BOBBYā€™S GIRL; or novelty acts (TELSTAR and PEPINO THE ITALIAN MOUSEā€¦ in the Top 5!). The Beatles were a breath of fresh air, but only a small percentage compared to the crap on the radio. Thank you. Back then there were all these novelty hits - Ahab the Arab, Monster Mash, Name Game, etc., etc. Good indicator of the poor state of the industry. Much as I love Weird Al, if half the songs being downloaded are Weird Al like songs, weā€™re in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/63 "2020-04-27T19:35:22Z")
ā€œIā€™m going to prove that they donā€™t make good movies any more by listing a bunch of good movies from the 60s and 70s.ā€ You really donā€™t see the flaw in that argument? Ok, how about this? Hereā€™s a list of the 100 greatest movies of all time based on a poll of people working in the industry: [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/100-best-films-ever-hollywood-favorites-818512](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/100-best-films-ever-hollywood-favorites-818512) 54 of them were released in 1980 or later. Donā€™t like that list? Here are the 100 greatest movies of all time based on their Rotten Tomatoes score: [Certified Fresh Movies at Home (February 2023) - Rotten Tomatoes](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/top/bestofrt/) 60 of them were released in 1980 or later. Yeah, they sure donā€™t make 'em like they used to. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/64 "2020-04-27T20:19:52Z")
The amount of trash and sleaze put out in the 60;s and 70ā€™s was huge. Iā€™m not even talking about straight up porn either; Badly choreographed Kung fu flicks, Gruesome cheap horror, R-rated sexploitation, etc. Sure you had _The Godfather_ and _5 easy pieces_ but you also had\* Wrestling Women vs. The Aztec Mummy\* and\* Pieces.\* ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/65 "2020-04-27T21:17:49Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The amount of trash and sleaze put out in the 60;s and 70ā€™s was huge. Iā€™m not even talking about straight up porn either; Badly choreographed Kung fu flicks, Gruesome cheap horror, R-rated sexploitation, etc. > > Sure you had _The Godfather_ and _5 easy pieces_ but you also had\* Wrestling Women vs. The Aztec Mummy\* and\* Pieces.\* And, now that I think about it, Where would MST3K be without all the awful shlock from the 60s and 70s. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/66 "2020-04-27T21:27:49Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > And, now that I think about it, Where would MST3K be without all the awful shlock from the 60s and 70s. Good point. By my count, in the first 128 episodes of MST3K, there were 115 movies released before 1980 and 13 movies from 1980 or later. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/67 "2020-04-27T21:48:36Z")
I donā€™t want to godwinize this thread, but I have to get it out of my system: one should be very careful with calling art ā€œdegenerateā€ (Iā€™m surely uncomfortable with it), thatā€™s exactly what the nazis called art they didnā€™t like, persecuted some artist for and banned many, ā€œ[entartete Kunst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art)ā€. Not surprisingly, they were very anti-modernist. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/68 "2020-04-27T22:00:46Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I donā€™t want to godwinize this thread, but I have to get it out of my system: one should be very careful with calling art ā€œdegenerateā€ (Iā€™m surely uncomfortable with it), thatā€™s exactly what the nazis called art they didnā€™t like, persecuted some artist for and banned many, ā€œ[entartete Kunst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art)ā€. Not surprisingly, they were very anti-modernist. Also see posts 7 and 16. ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/69 "2020-04-27T22:04:18Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I donā€™t want to godwinize this thread, but I have to get it out of my system: one should be very careful with calling art ā€œdegenerateā€ (Iā€™m surely uncomfortable with it), thatā€™s exactly what the nazis called art they didnā€™t like, persecuted some artist for and banned many, ā€œ[entartete Kunst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art)ā€. Not surprisingly, they were very anti-modernist. Donā€™t let the Nazis set a narrative and steal the languageā€¦ If they call the sky blue, I wouldnā€™t argue. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/70 "2020-04-27T22:10:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And Tom Lehrer called it ā€œchildrenā€™s music.ā€ And I donā€™t think the art form came from a simple maturation but from a revolution, a revolution of breaking away from ā€œTin Pan Alleyā€ to personal work. And I acknowledge that there were geniuses in Tin Pan Alley. At the time, Lehrer (and Freberg) were at least partially right. Rock ā€˜nā€™ roll, after bursting on the scene with a brash rawness that horrified the mavens of good taste during the mid 50s, had been tamed, mainstreamed, and slicked up into inoffensive pablum that was mainly about the petty concerns of adolescents. And it wasnā€™t just people over the age of 30 who felt that way about it. Rock (or what passed for rock then) was ā€œkid stuffā€ you set aside when you turned 18 and went to college, joined the military, or got a job. If you listened to music, you listened to something ā€œadultā€ like folk, jazz, C&W, or middle-of-the-road pop. This was the general rule until the British Invasion hit in 1964. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/71 "2020-04-27T22:13:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Also see posts 7 and 16. Sorry, I overlooked that. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/72 "2020-04-27T22:19:53Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > Donā€™t let the Nazis set a narrative and steal the languageā€¦ If they call the sky blue, I wouldnā€™t argue. Ok, then maybe I should begin to call people I donā€™t like Untermenschen. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/73 "2020-04-28T02:22:01Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > Donā€™t let the Nazis set a narrative and steal the languageā€¦ If they call the sky blue, I wouldnā€™t argue. Iā€™m 100% okay with letting the Naziā€™s have this one. ā€œArt made after \ is evidence of the moral decay of society,ā€ is, itself, a fundamentally immoral argument. It confuses personal taste with personal worth, and provides a stepping stone to the dehumanization of people who differ from you not in fundamental moral or ethical ways, but purely based on personal aesthetics. Iā€™ll also add that your list of ā€œgoodā€ media from before 1980 is startlingly worthless. Thatā€™s not proof that art was better before the '80s, thatā€™s just a list of stuff you like. None of it is objectively more worthy than anything that came after it. Thereā€™s no objective rubric you can point to that proves, conclusively, that the Beatles are better than the Backstreet Boys, and thereā€™s certainly no evidence that people who like the Backstreet Boys are any more ā€œdegenerateā€ than people who like the Beatles. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/74 "2020-04-28T07:43:00Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/75 "2020-04-28T07:52:42Z")
Ok this is a better song for this this thread [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/r7tnMAbOC6c/maxresdefault.jpg "Joan Jett And The Blackhearts - "Science Fiction/Double Feature"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7tnMAbOC6c) ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/76 "2020-04-28T12:21:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Iā€™m 100% okay with letting the Naziā€™s have this one. ā€œArt made after \ is evidence of the moral decay of society,ā€ is, itself, a fundamentally immoral argument. It confuses personal taste with personal worth, and provides a stepping stone to the dehumanization of people who differ from you not in fundamental moral or ethical ways, but purely based on personal aesthetics. > > Iā€™ll also add that your list of ā€œgoodā€ media from before 1980 is startlingly worthless. Thatā€™s not proof that art was better before the '80s, thatā€™s just a list of stuff you like. None of it is objectively more worthy than anything that came after it. Thereā€™s no objective rubric you can point to that proves, conclusively, that the Beatles are better than the Backstreet Boys, and thereā€™s certainly no evidence that people who like the Backstreet Boys are any more ā€œdegenerateā€ than people who like the Beatles. It actually wasnā€™t a list of things I necessarily liked. Many of my favorites arenā€™t considered classics, some are. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/77 "2020-04-28T14:27:52Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > It actually wasnā€™t a list of things I necessarily liked. Many of my favorites arenā€™t considered classics, some are. That doesnā€™t invalidate **Miller** ā€™s point that such judgments are inherently subjective. Thatā€™s what I meant by my last post listing 61 great post-70s bands to match the 61 on your list. Thereā€™s no _objective_ way to prove that Neil Young is better than Cowboy Junkies, to take a random example. Granted, a lot of the music on your list remains popular, and is acknowledged as important even 50 years on; but the only difference between the bands on your list and the bands on mine is time; in twenty years time, people will still be listening to Prince and R.E.M. and Adele. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/78 "2020-04-28T16:57:10Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > That doesnā€™t invalidate **Miller** ā€™s point that such judgments are inherently subjective. Thatā€™s what I meant by my last post listing 61 great post-70s bands to match the 61 on your list. Thereā€™s no _objective_ way to prove that Neil Young is better than Cowboy Junkies, to take a random example. Granted, a lot of the music on your list remains popular, and is acknowledged as important even 50 years on; but the only difference between the bands on your list and the bands on mine is time; in twenty years time, people will still be listening to Prince and R.E.M. and Adele. You call some later bands ā€œgreatā€, but then say itā€™s all ā€œsubjectiveā€? A lot of that sucked worse than the name game. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/79 "2020-04-28T19:25:29Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You call some later bands ā€œgreatā€, but then say itā€™s all ā€œsubjectiveā€? Thereā€™s no contradiction there. Those bands are great, in his subjective opinion. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570/80 "2020-04-28T23:49:52Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > **Thread: Docs/Interviews That Emphasize Degeneracy In Arts?** Thatā€™s one thing. > [@](#): > > This isnā€™t to criticize, but its a plea for something better. I would love to find an artist whose work I can look forward to seeing. New movie, album, concert (at their peak). Maybe you can create something great and share it with the world? If not, maybe you can introduce people to great things that might have gone under the radar? Thatā€™s something else. Great stuff and trash exist in the ratio of 1:19, sez Ted Sturgeon. Our cultural stew is a steaming toilet bowl\*; biggest turds float to the top. HL Mencken\*\* and PT Barnum\*\*\* reportedly commented on how easy people are persuaded to accept and demand crap. People will pay for crap so thatā€™s what they get. But both great stuff and crap remain with us and the diligent seeker of almost anything will be rewarded. Globally, virtually every act recorded since 1890 is available somewhere. Online software, music forums, and trusted humans can suggest performances suiting our tastes.\*\*\*\* The notion of artistic ā€œdegeneracyā€ posits a degradation of quality since some earlier period of near-perfection. Thus since all music derives from ancient chants, drums, and whistles, what we have now is dog waste. How could degenerate 1950s a-capella doo-wop be better than my Samoan tribal chants on 1930ā€™s 78s? Itā€™s all downhill. Yikes. - Like Phoenix as seen from the rest of Arizona. \*\* ā€œNobody ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American people.ā€ \*\*\* ā€œThereā€™s one [sucker] born every minute.ā€ \*\*\*\* Gypsy guitar on YouTube leads to Russian guitar and John Fahey andā€¦ > [@](#): > > [https://youtu.be/9RIkDljsk0s](https://youtu.be/9RIkDljsk0s) I started to watch but didnā€™t finish. Whatā€™s the [del]punchline[/del] conclusion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/docs-interviews-that-emphasize-degeneracy-in-arts/852570.md?page=5)